twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2011 Hello everyone. 1st I need to make a statement - this is my first grow. The box: It's 110cm high, 72cm wide and 48cm deep. This gives me as much as 0.35 squared meter... I've painted the walls inside into white mat [/code] Inside: I've got 400W HPS - osram nav-t son-t - http://www.thelightbulbshop.co.uk/Shop/Lig...dardSON-T).aspx anyone used it ? It's inside CoolTube air cooled by 2 120mm super silent fans. One is pushing air into the tube, other is sucking air out. Additionally in the back wall, I have got one 80mm outlet fan. And another one 120mm inlet fan on the bootom of the box. Day 1 just planted some seeds, in coco pellets. It's 2x Hericules and 1 Herijuana X Big white. They are under halogen light + i've added additional CFL to keep the temperature at expected level. Day 3 Today, I watered the pellets and went off to work. When came back, the two Hericules' sprouted, but the pellets were sand dry! I have watered them well, and left for few hours. The Hericules' kept growing so I assume they survived the dryness. Heri X Bwhite haven't shoot yet. Hope she'll germinate fine as well. I am very careful with the watering now. Some pictures, made using phone cheers, twistedfate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ishtar 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2011 Be careful and not dry out your seedlings. The pellets look a little dry, maybe it's the pic, but watch out for that. Also, seedlings don't require a lot of light so if that light is heating the top of the pellets raise it a little higher. Are you not going to use a carbon filter? If it needs to be stealth odor may be a problem. Nice set-up idea. holes on bottom for passive intake. I would also throw a clip on fan in there to stir the air. Good luck man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MH4Lyfe 1 Report post Posted January 9, 2011 Ishtar gave good advice. Passive intake on the bottom. Ideally you want to suck air out from the top; you usually exhaust out from the top also but you could run ducting back down to a floor exhaust for your stealth needs. I wouldn't place your exhaust intake at the bottom of the cab though, that should always be at the top. I have a carbon filter mounted to the roof of my cab which exhausts the hot air out through my cool tube. Carbon Filter ---> inline fan ---> cooltube -->out the cab Your plants shouldn't be shocked when you put the pellets into the soil. Good luck, you'll do well. Putting in the time to research like you have been will make it a successful grow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2011 Be careful and not dry out your seedlings. The pellets look a little dry, maybe it's the pic, but watch out for that. Also, seedlings don't require a lot of light so if that light is heating the top of the pellets raise it a little higher. Are you not going to use a carbon filter? If it needs to be stealth odor may be a problem. Nice set-up idea. holes on bottom for passive intake. I would also throw a clip on fan in there to stir the air. Good luck man Hi thanks for the suggestions. I am waiting for a nice USB powered fan to stir the air inside. The pellets are wet, sorry for the pic quality, I will try to make better quality shots next time - this one was made using phone camera Ishtar gave good advice. Passive intake on the bottom. Ideally you want to suck air out from the top; you usually exhaust out from the top also but you could run ducting back down to a floor exhaust for your stealth needs. I wouldn't place your exhaust intake at the bottom of the cab though, that should always be at the top. I have a carbon filter mounted to the roof of my cab which exhausts the hot air out through my cool tube. Carbon Filter ---> inline fan ---> cooltube -->out the cab Your plants shouldn't be shocked when you put the pellets into the soil. Good luck, you'll do well. Putting in the time to research like you have been will make it a successful grow. Hi mh4life, Thanks for the input too. I will apply some sort of filter (not a carbon one, rather piece of stocking) on the intake to keep the dust from flowing inside. Unfortunately I don't have enough room for a carbon filter - I also used 2x 8db 12cm computer fans, one for air inlet one for outlet. I guess the air will exchange smoothly. I will be putting some more pics when something happens cheers, twistedfate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maverick 278 Report post Posted January 9, 2011 With your cool tube exhaust and inlet being so close aon't you be sucking your exhaust heat right back into the system? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MH4Lyfe 1 Report post Posted January 9, 2011 I think you'll have issues with your grow space overheating based on the ventilation and lighting you have planned. Is this cab in a closet also or a wide open space? The plants will stink a lot, so if this is a stealth grow, I would not grow without a carbon filter or ozone generator (don't exhaust ozone into living spaces). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2011 Hi guys, Thanks for the replies ! @Maverick, I have indeed considered that, but did some testing and it seems that the temperature inside box is stable after 4-5 hours of HPS working with inlet - outlet so close. If needed I could separate them a bit. @MH4life, As mentioned above, I managed to get the temperature to stable level with this ventilation. Also the cab is in living space directly.I am not this much concerned about odor at the moment, I will wait and see how the situation develops. The seeds are now 48h in pellets, and they still haven't showed up yet... Should I be worried? I think 48 h is just about time for the sprouts to shoot. cheers, twistedfate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 10, 2011 Hi Guys, The temparture stabilized above 33C degrees, so it was too high. I have thus added one 92mm exhaust fan just above cooltube (marked E on the draft). And one 120mm Fan blowing air into cooltube (marked with F ) With this the temperature is @ 28.4 C and raised to 28.8 C within 12 hours - I assume my room temperature raised that's why box's temp raised too. Note, (E) is an active inlet, powered by 120mm hi speed fan. All fans generate minimum noise around 8dB - so that's stealth > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ || || || (E) || (A)------HPS-CoolTube(400W) (F) 100cm || || || || || || || || || || || || || || (B)------------Screen-----------55cm || || || || || || || || (C)------------Pot's------------23cm || || || || || || ||(D) (E)|| ===================================== After 55H in pellets, the seeds still didn't sprout. I read some info on the web that the germination rate in pellets is around 50%... Hope it's not the case here. bless, twistedfate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inthecloset 3 Report post Posted January 11, 2011 Yeah 33 is a little warm for sprout or seedlings, larger plants should not have too much of an issue, I get to 33 at times (stupid summer) but ideally want it lower. Where are you measuring your temp from (top/bottom of box)? I would consider swapping you intake and outtake fans, you want to suck more rather than blow, so the bigger one is outlet, having said that I run everything through a carbon filter so I want overall negative pressure. Are you sure smell won't be an issue? I have a slightly taller and longer room (still with a 400W in it) and if I didn't have my carbon filter the whole neighbourhood would smell it... You can make one pretty easily for not much cash, and they don't have to be big... It's just if you get your plants going, and they don't smell much in veg, you think you have no problems, but if they start to stink retro-fitting a carbon filter will decrease your outward airflow and you could be back to square1 with your temp. In my room I have to run two 150mm fans to suck through an OdorSok to ensure I have negative pressure with only a 120mm computer fan as intake from outside, plus I also have a 120mm fan pushing into a cool tube and another 150mm fan sucking off it. As well as a little 120mm deskfan right under the cooltube blowing parallel to it. Also, make sure your cool tube intake fan is filtered (I use muslin clothe), otherwise you will get dust building up on the inside of the tube and this will increase your temps too. Temps are you main issue in a room this size, they were for me, screwed up more than one grow cause they got too high. Ambient temp will effect the cabinet temp (as you've noted) so if you're in winter at the moment, summer could cock you up too. It's all fun and games man... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 11, 2011 Yeah 33 is a little warm for sprout or seedlings, larger plants should not have too much of an issue, I get to 33 at times (stupid summer) but ideally want it lower. Where are you measuring your temp from (top/bottom of box)? I would consider swapping you intake and outtake fans, you want to suck more rather than blow, so the bigger one is outlet, having said that I run everything through a carbon filter so I want overall negative pressure. Are you sure smell won't be an issue? I have a slightly taller and longer room (still with a 400W in it) and if I didn't have my carbon filter the whole neighbourhood would smell it... You can make one pretty easily for not much cash, and they don't have to be big... It's just if you get your plants going, and they don't smell much in veg, you think you have no problems, but if they start to stink retro-fitting a carbon filter will decrease your outward airflow and you could be back to square1 with your temp. In my room I have to run two 150mm fans to suck through an OdorSok to ensure I have negative pressure with only a 120mm computer fan as intake from outside, plus I also have a 120mm fan pushing into a cool tube and another 150mm fan sucking off it. As well as a little 120mm deskfan right under the cooltube blowing parallel to it. Also, make sure your cool tube intake fan is filtered (I use muslin clothe), otherwise you will get dust building up on the inside of the tube and this will increase your temps too. Temps are you main issue in a room this size, they were for me, screwed up more than one grow cause they got too high. Ambient temp will effect the cabinet temp (as you've noted) so if you're in winter at the moment, summer could cock you up too. It's all fun and games man... Hi inthecloset man! Appreciate you sharing your experience. I actually have only 1 inlet fan, which blows air into the box. Then there's one 120mm fan blowing air from inside the box into the cooltube, and another 120mm sucking air from the cooltube. In addition to that, I've got another smaller 80mm outlet, that would suck hot air cooltube may generate and blow it away from the box. If the temperature will be unstable I could make another 80mm hole in the botom of the box. The temps are measured at the level of the seedlings now. I assume it may get much hotter when I'd measure it higher. I am currently having some issues with the fans power source, which only generates 5V out of 12V so the fans are running on really lazy speeds!! Still the temps were below 30C with CoolTube hung at the highest level and temps measure at ground leve. !! I am getting new power adaptor soon. with regards to the smell... When you say neighbours you mean the people across the street? If that's the case I cannot go w/o the carbon filter but I can build one... My big concern is that I'd need a powerful fan to work with it and as such - fan generating lots of noise. Or would normal 120mm PC fan do the right job ? Last but not least, I am looking for some insight on HPS lighting. My HPS was a cheap one, and thus I am worried about it's performance and spectrum (there's a link in my first post). What light would you use ? peace, tf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MH4Lyfe 1 Report post Posted January 11, 2011 Glad to see you're working on maintaining ideal temperatures. Try not to save too much on your ventilation and odor control...that's the last place I'd try to save. I would do it right or not at all. To stay stealth and not upgrade your setup much, a 250w light may work much better if you haven't purchased anything yet. About the filter, you're risking your operation skipping that. Your whole house and anything in it will stink during flowering without one, even moreso with those indica strains. Good luck, I'll enjoy the updates...cab grows are my favorite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inthecloset 3 Report post Posted January 11, 2011 Yup my house would stink, it would be easily detected by walking outside. I've passed many houses that you could tell they were growing in, the smell gives it away. MH4Lyfe is right, don't skimp on ventilation and odour control, I tried and ended up spending more than if I just did it properly the first time. In terms of fans for carbon filters, I run a 120mm fan into a filter box that I made, but that's only for my veg room (they can smell in veg too). I splashed out for an OdorSok for the main room, pretty pricey but worth it. Having said that I am going to try making my own when I need to replace it. I would say you could make your own filter with some pelletized activated carbon (from pet stores often), that you could duct to from your cabinet, if space permits you could design one to fit ontop of the box. The thing to do if you want to maintain your ventilation is to make a box with a large surface area carbon filter screen, this will decrease the back pressure caused and hence (hopefully) maintain your outflow. Alternatively get a 150mm inline fan, this will increase you outflow to compensate for the back pressure. If you want I could mock up the design I used and post it as an image somewhere, let me know. Afterthought: In fact if you were to place the filter on top of the cab you could just move the fan to the top of the cabinet to blow directly into the filter box, that would stop you from having to duct, which will decrease you airflow slightly too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 11, 2011 Hi, Ok it's now clear to me that I need to re-think the air circulation again and consider making carbon filter. I have a plan, but need to see some numbers. I want to add another 120mm fan sucking from the cooltube. In total, I'd have 3 x 120mm fans sucking air from the box via cool tube - this would help with the temperature and I think generate enough pressure for air to go through the carbon filter. 1 x 80mm outlet fan blowing air from the top of the box - outside. and 1 120mm inlet fan. So considering the efficiancy of these fans I would have outlet of 220 - 240 m3/h and inlet of 60-65m3/h. in theory in a box, that has around 0.4m3 the air would be exchanged 550 times each hour... (if I get the numbers correct). Should be more than enough I am curious what numbers would you use. I would also like to ask again, about the light bulb I'm using. My OSRAM HPS is used in street lightning (according to manufacturers website) which I believe was flamed on this and other borads as sh!ty for plants... Can someone pls advise ? thanks, tf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inthecloset 3 Report post Posted January 11, 2011 OK, I would isolate your cool tube (they way I read your last post was that the cool tube was open to the cabinet). I would have a fan blowing into the tube and another, sucking it off. This way you are maximising the airflow through the tube which will have the greatest effect on your temps (keep in mind the option of replacing the blow fan with the smaller 80mm fan you have, that will be fine I think). Don't stress about how much air you have exchanging, once you have the air flow right for the temps you will be exchanging more than enough air. Two 120mm fans is fine for outtake but how will you hook them to the same filter? By the looks of things you will have to blow through the filter (since your room is small and can't fit the filter inside). If it was me I would make carbon filter out of a box the same dimensions as your cabinet but only 20-30cm in height and have the two 120mm fans blowing into that from the top of you cabinet, no ducting means better air flow. That leaves another 120mm fan (?) for intake. You will see a huge drop in temp if you actively intake air, again if it were me I would opt for 2-3 80mm fans for active intake, spread evenly around the lower portion of your cabinet. Remember if you can get a strong and even air intake you probably won't need a fan on the inside stirring things up so you save space. My ramblings if I've understood properly, let me know if you want details on the carbon filter I am talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 Day 4 Good news everyone! Both Hericules and Heri shoot ! Please have a look Now I have a question, should I plant the pellets into soil now, or rather wait for the roots to come out from the pellet?? @inthecloset, Hi thank you for the suggestion. I will indeed take the Carbon filter outside the box, and add two 120mm fans would suck air from the cooltube. I will attach properly the fan you can see on the picture to blow air to cooltube (the duct on the right, was initially an active intake for cooltube, but then I noticed I have no air inlet so added fan pushing air to the tube and left the intake duct unplugged. I appreciate I can place the intake anywhere I want, but I assume keeping it low is the best option. please see below picture for better idea how the box is designed. When I'm looking at the pics, I can clearly see there's still lots of work ahead to make the box work as expected, so appreciate all suggestions!! cheers, twistedfate P.S. The CFL is normal 40W CFL that helps me keep the temps about right with HPS and fans turned off. When I go to flowering I will use this CFL mount for 26W CFL emitting 5% UVB rays Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inthecloset 3 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 No worries man, looking at you pics this is what I comes into my head (bear in mind I'm a little baked) That door fucks doing anything with the top surface (where does the door go when it's up? Can't down the back because you have that 120mm fan there) You will suck warm air in with the closed off bottom part I would put a partition inbetween the in- and out-take holes. Is the bottom part open to the back, if not make it so. You run that much ducting through the room and it will either mean the pull from the fan will drop significantly and/or the air will warm up on its way through the duct and lower the cooling efficiency of your tube. With ducting less is more. I would try and mount two 120mm fans on the back wall of your box, facing opposite directions of course, and duct these to you tube, to pull and push, this will keep your tube cooler. When you can use isluated ducting. But it's bigger, so maybe just aluminium ducting (or cover the ducting surface with tinfoil). This will decrease heat transfer between the room and the air inside. Again bear with me I'm baked... In-take for the room: You need to make sure the in-coming cool air gets evenly distributed, while minimising any negative effect on air flow (remember the longer the duct the lower the flow) so ideally you want to duct smoewhere central - pain in the arse though becauase you don't want to waste space. I would fit a false bottom with some 8mm MDF and drill 1" holes 2" apart, attach some 2" spacers onto the underside to raise it off the floor and have a 120mm fan blow straight into the space created. This will create the most even distribution I think I've had a hard time keeping my temps less than 10 or so degreesC above ambient, what's your ambient temp going to get to, and humidity? The dryer the better in terms of cooling you can jury-rig a evaporative cooler up to lower temps but only if it is a dry ambient climate, You will definately need a carbon filter- if you going to buy one you will need a 150mm fan, or two 120mm is suppose but you will have to run a three way joiner to blow through 1 filter. But they cost. You could make one there are lots of plans out there, I'm still thinking about what I would do here... Ideally I would run two 120mm room in-takes into the "air-bed" and a reasonably grunty 150mm fan as out-take through a carbon filter can where you have the 120mm at the back. With the isolated cool tube this would hum... I reckon at least Disclaimers: I'm baked. I assume getting a oscillatory fan in there would be a pain considering space... ok I just wouldn't do it These are just suggestions based on the pics you have given, not sure where you will put it etc.. you will need a bit of space behind it though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 Hi inthecloset, thanks I can see logic in your suggestions, and they seem really good ones. The thing is my box design is dictated by my environment and the closet structure itself. I cannot mount anything on the back wall outside the box, as it would block the slide-doors from opening. Also mounting on the top is not an option, as there's this area is closed with very limited ventilation (and I already use it to keep all the electronics). Sidewalls are not an option either - it has to be stealth. So the only options left are, the floor of the box, or the lowest part of the back wall. So now I've taken the duct outside bottom of the back wall, and will attach carbon filter to it. This leaves me with additional 120mm inlet on the left handside so now I have two of them on the bottom.. I will leave the left one passive, and use it if needed. I am still missing stirring fan inside, I gues I could hang another 120mm somwhere inside. I want to stick to 12v PC fans, because 1st - they are safe, and wouldn't cause fire if there's something wrong. 2nd - They are SILENT, 13,6 db is a good result with 60m3/h air flow rate. Should I move the pellets to final pot now or rather wait for the roots to come through the pellets ?? cheers, tf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloneman 314 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 Should I move the pellets to final pot now or rather wait for the roots to come through the pellets ?? Put them in a small/medium sized pot now, as you want the tap root to go down deep. Then up pot them when they are properly rooted. I always put mine into 6 inch pots so the tap root goes a long way down giving it more of a chance of being a female, growing to 5/6 nodes when it should show its sex. Then up pot the fems, that way you are not wasting soil or space. Are they fem seeds, i know the herijuana x big white are, possibly the hericles aswell? With fems seeds i put them in 6 inch pots, to see if you get any runts which will be disgarded, again saving space/time/effort. Then up potting the lovely ladies when fully rooted. Good luck mate C Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloneman 314 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 Ps. Forgot to say i put 2 herijuana x big white and 10 gryphon in to soak yesterday. The 10 fem hericles will be done next round. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 Hey ! Good luck with the Heri x Bwhite The plants are all feminized, so I take it I won't need to discard any. Now, is there a reason for re-potting apart from saving time / effort ? I reckon the plants don't like to be repotted, so I wanted to put them into final container where they can spend a good time till end of their days And this is my plan unless there's a reason not to do so. I have started applying 2/5 dose of the PowerZyme, TNT Complex and Root Complex from HESI. I guess it's not too early. cheers, tf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inthecloset 3 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 No worries man, just what I would do, you understand your contraints better then I do. Just keep those temps down, and go hard. Good luck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 12, 2011 Cheers inthecloset I'll go as hard as I can lol Day 5 All three ladies: Hericules #1 cheers, tf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 13, 2011 What up stoners I am now at day 6, the plants are still under small halogen desk lamp, and one CFL - I guess that's why plants are stretching high, because they need more light and the current lighting is not sufficient. I need to sort out ventilation today, and fire up the HPS. I will use it until I receive my 400W Metal Halide GROWMASTER for proper veg. I want to keep them under 24/0 regime during veg, and then greadualy decrease the lighting up to 12/12. Some info about 24/0 here cheers, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twistedfate 0 Report post Posted January 13, 2011 Day 6 Hi fellow growers ! Today is a big day! I have planted the little girls in 11l pots. I have upgraded the ventilation system and left them under HPS. The MH lamp should be arriving tomorrow. Some eye candy: Heri X Big White I will keep them under 24 / 0 until they grow enough, or unless I run into temperature problems... peace, twistedfate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MH4Lyfe 1 Report post Posted January 14, 2011 lookin good man, nice job at making it work. git er done Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
