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Nutrient Formulas

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I think ppm is more accurate more percise messurment. just an opinion. either way it doesn't tell us what exactly is in it, it just lets you know the concentration of dissolved solids to check with your nutrient formula. I wish they had a meter that would do an N-P-K reading of the solution, so you could figure out deficiencies and dial in to max performance a little better.

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Accuracy goes to electro-conductivity (EC).

Every single meter on the planet reads in EC. The meter passes a small current out in to the solution, and a probe receives the return voltage. The resistance across the solution is what is measured, and gives you the EC value.

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) is given as value of PPM. However, TDS is measured through EC, and the conversion ratio's for each meter and each standard are different.

JBarth pointed out 500 for US and 700 for UK conversions, but those aren't the only ones. Universities use 685 pmm = 1 EC.

A medical lab friend said their conversion rate is 640 pmm = 1 EC.

The base reading of EC is most accurate, as the conversions to PPM are not standardized.

That said, I use PPM because that's my meters show.

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I just started with .5.

 

A starting PPM of 600 at .5 = an EC of 1.2= at .7 =840 according to the truncheon,

1000ppm @.5 = EC2.0

 

 

So if your meter has a conversion, does it really matter? I used to keep a log and track what the different ppms did to the plants. For bonsai 1.0-1.2 EC was all you need.

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can anyone explain to me why in the US many are using ppm instead of ec?

 

 

hey whazzup,

i actually use e.c. readings. some where back on pg the topic came up in some thread. and consensus was that it's far easier to use the E.C. reading as it doedn't fluctuate & is the same on any meter if i recall that thread. so i started using that and have never used ppm's at all.

 

i use a truncheon style meter; and it's not digital either lol cheap, simple and effective. i wasn't going to pay xtra for the blue lab that just kept going up in price with no real improvemets on performance or anything else imho.

 

 

EC Dipstick PPM / EC / TDS Meter 64.95. got mine when it was even cheaper then that. they are sold at various places this is just

a link i saw quickly.

 

http://www.nehydro.com/products/EC-Dipstic...-TDS-Meter.html

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I think you guys missed the point. The conversion factor to PPM can vary, there are actually only 3 conversion used. If a independant lab uses there own conversion it is likely due to equipment used or some other variable. When I took Botony they taught to use these 3 only and to ignore any other conversion factors used by independant studies.

 

My point was that ALL values are derived from using EC and they then take that EC value and convert it to "whatever".....TDS/PPM...ect...

 

 

The debate over EC and TDS has been an ongoing issue for a long time. These two measurements are used to determine the strength of hydroponic solution. Although they are widely used they should only be used as a guideline and you should always follow mixing instructions on the label of you nutrient.

EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and is measured in mS/cm or millisiemens per centimeter. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and is measured in PPM or parts per million. TDS is acquired by taking the EC value and performing a calculation to determine the TDS value. Because TDS is actually a calculation it is really only a guess at what the nutrient concentration is. On top of that, there are three different conversion factors to determine TDS and different manufacturers use different conversion factors. In other words you could test the same solution with two different meters and get two totally different readings. But the EC is read the same by all meters the only difference is the conversion factor.

 

 

If you take a botony class or class in plant biology, this is what they will teach and this is what ALL manufactureres of nutrient solutions go by.

 

 

Peace!

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It is simply a measurement system. Whatever works for a person is the right answer. Its not like one person is going to use .7 conversion one time and a .5 conversion the next time. It matters not so much how the measurement is calculated but if it is practical to what you are doing. Since their are no main stream real world issues using a PPM meter or EC measurement I tend to see chest thumping on measurements systems akin to arguing the virtues of metric versus us measurements tapered with peoples inexperience with using the different systems and projecting their view on their issue. I have yet to see a grow log where someone had serious issues due to a PPM measurement being .7 or .5 in its calculations.

 

It really does not matter what name someone gives the measurement. If it is too high or too low their will be issues. Once your dialed in. It matters not if you call it EC or PPM providing all things competent. Their are often more ways to get to one destination and this is that kind of thing.

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Well said Hempyfan. I think growers in general forget that these meters/values are meant to be used as "guidelines" only and nothing more. To much weight gets put into these valuse IMHO....you use them for a guide and then the plants should dictate what happens from then on.....they also (the meters) can or should be used to help keep track (data logging) of what worked well. That way a grower can easily look back at a previous favorite succesful grow and see what the plants liked or didnt like.

 

Peace!

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If you take a botony class or class in plant biology, this is what they will teach and this is what ALL manufactureres of nutrient solutions go by.

Wow. I didn't even mention the metric system (yet). Thanks all for the interesting posts. I understand how it works (I mean the ec->ppm conversion) and different manufacturers use different multipliers. But I suppose it's just like the metric system then. No please don't respond tot that ;)

 

It is simply a measurement system. Whatever works for a person is the right answer. Its not like one person is going to use .7 conversion one time and a .5 conversion the next time. It matters not so much how the measurement is calculated but if it is practical to what you are doing. Since their are no main stream real world issues using a PPM meter or EC measurement I tend to see chest thumping on measurements systems akin to arguing the virtues of metric versus us measurements tapered with peoples inexperience with using the different systems and projecting their view on their issue. I have yet to see a grow log where someone had serious issues due to a PPM measurement being .7 or .5 in its calculations.

 

It really does not matter what name someone gives the measurement. If it is too high or too low their will be issues. Once your dialed in. It matters not if you call it EC or PPM providing all things competent. Their are often more ways to get to one destination and this is that kind of thing.

Well I do not completely agree with you (that's something different than completely not agree B)) . For nutrients manufacturers it is a real pain in the neck. I'm the first to say that the grower should decide how much is enough by evaluating his crop and every plant and pot size is different, but more than 25% difference between the ppm scales is a lot and it shouldn't happen just because of a different local or manufacturer multiplier. As a nutrient manufacturer you are forced to use a scale that is at best 12-15% off from the recommended dosage. I think it would be safer to either use ec or a combination of ppm and the conversion factor. Then you can recalculate that to your meters ppm by dividing the recommended TDS by the conversion factor used for that recommendation (so basically calculating back to ec in us/cm) and than multiplying it by your meters conversion factor to calculate what your TDS meter should read in the correct ppm according to your meter. Right? B)

 

If you don't stick to your brand when your meter dies you probably won't kill your plants with .4 ms/cm more nutrients but it is all so unnecessary.

 

So why use ppm? The only legit reason I read so far is because someone had the feeling it was more accurate ;)

 

I knew I had come across a comprehensive article about it and I did: Here it is.

 

So in short there is no real logical reason behind it other than that it has always been this way?

post-59-1304372680.jpg

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Thanks.

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Yeah I don't think anyone person has stated a wrong answer, it is just the best we can do for the technology that we have at this time. And hopefuly in the near future as this type of nutrient knowledge catches on, we will see a more accurate way to messure and ease of use come to our hand held meter selection.

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I'm using GH Flora Nova Bloom as my base nute throughout all my grows regardless of the medium, hydro and soil/soiless, through veg and flower. Also using Great White for inoculation, Green Fuse Bloom Stimulator for extra taste and resin production, silica and seaweed for plant protection against stresses and for strength and immunity, and sometimes Ginormous here and there on plants 5 weeks or more in flowering. I've had amazing results, and confirmed by my buddy who owns a dispensary, and sees his share of top notch quality meds daily. But he's always impressed with what I have to show him.

 

Now, I have no complaint on quality, but my issue is quantity. Could be more to do with strains, but i feel I can get a bit more out of my grows if using the right enhancers, boosters, and stimulators. I will probably not stop using Green Fuse unless somebody can confirm it does nothing, but int experience, taste and resin production are highly magnified when I've used Green Fuse and use it faithfully now.

 

My question is, would Koolbloom and Floralicious help me in yield department as well, with the nutes I'm using and all? Obviously I wouldn't use Ginormous in conjunction with these, but everything else I use is not boosters.

 

So I guess JBarth, or anybody else who has an opinion, feel free to give me some feedback! Peace!

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Hi Sixx, good to have someone that uses Nova I have been thinking of trying some. As of now I am having better ressults using useless's 3 part GH formula for hydro with some hempy bucket hybrid's than with the recomended formula with all the additives, and I can only speak from the veg stand point because I have just switched into flower mode.

on the soil/soil less mix I have been using Jokers method of 3,2,1, 2,2,2, 1,2,3, / Grow,Micro,Bloom, 1 repreasents 5ml per 3 gal of water. I do add some kool bloom in week 5 and 6 as there is usually 3 waterings per week by this point and it seems to help going into 6th week if strain is longer than a 8 weeker, but this could be strain relivant aswell (depending on what she can handle and what she likes).

 

I just went and purchased 1LB of Earth Juice ROOTER's mycorihziea $13.00, any one else use this kind? There was quite the selection when it came to mycorhizea products and wide price range. I was wondering if anyone is better than the other?

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Focal: Just bumped that to a 2 gallon formula for DJ SHort Blueberry and Pure Kush. PPM was 800 at .5. Added Calmag and Koolbloom as needed.

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I have been using a Tidy Cat jug that is about 2.5 gal and it seems to be working good. What kind of CalMag do you use Joker? Do you just use calmag when using kool bloom or do you just wait for symptoms of deffiecencies?

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I have run the strains before and know what they need. I use botanicare calmag plus at half strength.

 

I use Great White only in organics as salt ferts kill both mychos and bacteria. With Gh ferts I use House and Garden root excellerator which is amazing. Blows away my organic roots by growing about twice as fast.

 

I'm using Koolbloom liquid and powder on my gh girls . The liquid is not necessary and once I've used it up I'll stick with powder.

Both Koolbloom and Mother of all Blooms work great. Useless uses it in week 5. The jar says week 2 and 7. I've done both.

It gives the same results as a week or two extra veg. Root size = fruit size.

 

I used MOAb 1/4 strength at week 5 with an organic grow and was very happy with the results.

 

DO NOT USE WITH SANNIES TABS!

 

I use budswel with gh 3 part. It lowers ph, 3-5 ml per gallon is ok. Any more and you will lower the ph and get nite lock out. Do not use budswel and PK boosters.

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Have you tried the Genral Organics line up yet Joker? GH seems to have a handle on nutes but I havn't heard mutch yet on their organic line.

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I've been lurking onto this thread since your first post Focal but was not much interested with all the formulas since we only use organics here.

Now that you're asking I believe I'll follow more closely. :D

We don't even find Koolbloom in my neck of the woods. Instead their is Biobloom which is very expensive (30ml = 18.5€).

In fact all GH nutes whether organics or not are far more expensive than other Euro brands. I just wonder if it worth it ?

 

Peace

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In California GH is cheap. A gallon is about 17 euro. 3 gallons will last a while.

 

I've only used Pura Vida, Compost Tea and Sannies tabs for organic. Age Old Grow and Earth Juice Microblast as foliar feeds.

 

Haven't used the Gh organics. Trying to use up all the crap I bought last year. Going to start using Pura Vida and teas on my vegetable garden before it goes bad.

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Well since everyone has their 2 cents then here goes mine... Organic = No chemical pesticides, herbicides and synthetic or chemical fertilizers. If they sell foliar spray nutes for the leafs of the MJ plant then obviously the plant absorbs that fertilizer and damn right it most likely stays in the plant to do you either good or bad depending on what gets sprayed or fed into the leafs or roots. Plants absorb from the roots and leafs so I think any smart healthy couscious person in their right mind would want to smoke some "eagle 20" for example. Yes it gets rid of powder mold very effectively but what does it do to your lungs? I'd say just keep it organic and its worth the wait, the yield and the quality + you do the environment good. You can regrow on soil where organic nutrients were used for about id say forever as long as you keep recomposting your land, compared to God knows how fast those chemicals burn or damage your soil after just a couple crops.

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Oh and by the way I love fish emulsion, been hearing good things about kelp i just started using it so i'll know soon if its good. Bat Guano to give it flavor but it can raise the ph of your soil so its a good idea to mix some dolomite lime for those of you that mix your own soil its important to keep that good ph in the soil not just the water and the bat guano fucks with that so dolomite lime helps to get rid of that problem. For spider mites or almost any kind of mites ladybugs are cheap at local hydroponic stores. Good soil contains all the nutrients necessary but fish emulsion gives the plants that nice out of this world boost. Fish has been used for growing since the Aztecs days, they used to put a fish under every corn seed.

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Try and get rid of mites with ladybugs then come back and let us know how it works.

 

Organics is not a belief religion. It has good qualities and downsides.

 

I do both based on experience . The fish under corn was a Spanish method of growing that was fictionalized into the pilgrim story.

Fish emulsion does work to feed the bacteria colony in the soil. Outdoors it's bad enough ,'indoors it's disgusting.

Kelp is ok and works great as a foliar. Soil mix can feed the bacteria and fungus, not the plant. I grow organics in soil less, just making a colony of bacteria and feeding it.

 

Science and experience always trumps belief.

 

Organics takes twice as long for 1/2 to 2/3 the yield for a minor difference in taste. My chem fert grow was preferred over my organics by med patients in a local collective. Go figure.

 

I'm doing a side by side of chem and organics in soil. Yield wise the chems are blowing the organics away. But the taste is what I want to see.

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In California GH is cheap. A gallon is about 17 euro.

Thanks Joker, now I understand why everybody swears by it. Here for the same price we can only get 1L (quart) of organic nutes.

I won't change from organics to chem ferts but I wonder how the shelf life compare as 1L is enough for a whole year for me.

 

Peace

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I will be waiting to hear jokers results before switching to straight organics, I have been a chem user for awhile, and want to jump on the wagon, but I need some respectable results.

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Try and get rid of mites with ladybugs then come back and let us know how it works.

 

Organics is not a belief religion. It has good qualities and downsides.

 

I do both based on experience . The fish under corn was a Spanish method of growing that was fictionalized into the pilgrim story.

Fish emulsion does work to feed the bacteria colony in the soil. Outdoors it's bad enough ,'indoors it's disgusting.

Kelp is ok and works great as a foliar. Soil mix can feed the bacteria and fungus, not the plant. I grow organics in soil less, just making a colony of bacteria and feeding it.

 

Science and experience always trumps belief.

 

Organics takes twice as long for 1/2 to 2/3 the yield for a minor difference in taste. My chem fert grow was preferred over my organics by med patients in a local collective. Go figure.

 

I'm doing a side by side of chem and organics in soil. Yield wise the chems are blowing the organics away. But the taste is what I want to see.

Organics tastes better and smells fruitier. I have friends that grow in hydro and friends that grow out in Mendocino outdoor. The Aztecs are the ones that used to put the fish under the seed before they even knew that spaniards existed(ive read an OLD Aztec book from before most of the recent history books on Mexico and the Spanish takeover were written). A cow can grow up to 3 to 4 times as fast if you inject them with hormones and antibiotics which is more proritable but the quality is not the same. With the proper nutrients in the soil and a harvest grown from seed with a good climate outside your plants develop some natural anti mold properties and their own little defences like smells etc..that can unattract mold and mites. Some areas are better for sativas and some for indicas and strains have alot to do on how mold resistant in your area your plants will be. I was just saying I prefer organics and why I do. Would I rather vaporize or make me a tea of cannabis that at one point some of the nugs got a little mold or at one point had some spider mites or vaporize a nice looking nug that I know for sure was treated with a dangerous chemical so that the dispensary and the person that supplies the dispensary can make a bigger profit. I would go for a nice good tasting organic nug. JMO. This is my first year that I will be using ladybugs outdoor 1500 for 7 usd i'll buy a couple packs. They were good for spider mites indoor since they all stay inside and have no choice but to survive by eating whatever is inside. I have patience, i know i'll get about at least 4 lbs off a plant when i'm done and thats 4 lbs of good quality outside. Good enough to keep me from not knowing what im getting from the dispensary for a very long time.

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I've been an outdoor organic grower for years and I've read a lot of it literature on it. Yes, chemical ferts hurt the watertable etc. I live near the SF Bay and don't want run off from my garden going into the bay. It's also less work, but it took SEVEN years of top dressing to get my clay to turn around.

 

There is no difference in the chemical make up of the N=P- K that the plant absorbs from chem ferts or the bacterial colony. Whether your soil mix feeds the colony or the chem ferts feed the roots, it's still N-P-k.

 

Fish emulsion contains mercury. I use it on my roses and all around my garden a few times a year. I would bet that using that puts mercury and lead into your plants just like eating it. Is smoking that any worse than smoking a pure form of N, P, or K? To the plant, N-P-K and micronutrients are all the same.

It's just not scientific fact.

 

 

Is organics better for the soil and the earth . Sure, but does it automatically make everything taste better? No.

I'm on my 4th indoor organic grow. Normally I use a hybrid approach. I saw a big difference in flavor between chem ferts in hydroton and chem ferts in soil. Just adding worm castings to soil less got the weed a little more comlex, more skunky. Now the organic in the same soil mix was not that different except for a greatly diminished yield.

 

I'm trying it again side by side to see for myself what the major difference is.

 

I can say that organic plants are easier to clone and for that reason, my mother plants are now all organic. I'll know in a few weeks when I harvest my plants what the flavor difference is between skillfully grown chem ferts and organics is. Not because I believe in it, but because I can taste the difference.

 

So far, the differences have been so slight, I'm not sure that it's worth it. Only difference now is that I'm applying teas more frequently and will flush the chems for two weeks instead of 10 days.

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