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This thread is to express the sheer extent of frustration i've been facing regarding growing for the past 9-10 months.

 

10 months ago, i was growing happily outdoors, growing big indian landraces, massive yielding plants, strains from mandala seeds, mr.nice, etc. i grew organic but didn't give too much heed to what went into the potting mix. i'd dump a visually measured mix of coco peat, vermicompost, bone meal (certainly went overboard with the bone meal, as the rats showed me with their presence) and

either perlite or sand. and the plants grew beautiful. no nutrient problems or anything.

 

then, suddenly, one day all the new seeds i sowed stopped growing after a few days of popping out of the soil. i thought it was a slow starting strain. then they didn't grow at all for days. the more beans i popped, the more displayed this issue - seed sprouts, either damps off and dies or stays above ground and just almost stops growing after the second node or so. the ones that did grow further would wilt and die very quick. as i began to handle the problem by elimination, as nobody anywhere seemed to know what was going on, i tried pesticides, fungicides, etc. Nothing had any effect. Then i tried organic bio agents. Trichoderma Harzanium, VAM (myco), pseudomonas flourescens, tricherma viride. to no effect.

 

then i had to move to a different city for work. and i'm now growing indoors. and i'm pleased to say that i don't seem to be experiencing the 'disease of immediate wilt and death'. however, the seedlings seem to be growing so so so slowly. after 3 weeks, i'm hardly two inches above the ground and i've got tiny little cotyledon sized leaves at the nodes, considering there's only three nodes. i stopped feeding. i've tried using a lighter or a stronger mix. this current mix is coco:perlite:cow manure compost:vermicompost in a ratio of 7:1:1:1. i've tried as much as 4:1:2:3 and as little as 9:⅓:⅓:⅓. i'm just trying advanced nutrients grow to see if it works. i hate chemicals but i hate failure more. i did manage to grow out a bagseed to give me a small runty plant that's hardly even a foot tall and probably won't give me more than 8-10 grams of bud, using AN bloom and micro from the 4th week of flowering, and it's now just about a week from finishing..

 

and basically, i want to know, WHAT CAN I DO TO GET MY PLANTS GROWING AGAIN, WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?!

 

grow room temps : 80-85

R/H: 70-95%

Flowering : 1 hps x 400w (bare bulb) [i have space for 6 hps bulbs in total but what's the point if i can't get my bloody seedlings up?)

veg : 4 x 28w T5

 

seedlings for 21 days since sprouting…just sad

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i would really appreciate any advice or experience with stunted growth…as i'm nearing my wits end i don't know what to do any further...

 

These are my african landraces - v scrog- from ethiopia. what causes downward leaf curling? i read that it was excess N, cause this is not an overwatered/underwatered plant i can guarantee that...

 

 

 

 

 

this is the poor photography of the old wilt disease my plants began to face…wilt, necrotic leaves, death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

can somebody tell me anything about what they think is going on? i'm bamboozled and i don't like knowing that for whatever reason i can't grow my herb!!! and money is just being wasted in the effort…pics of seedlings soon...

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he dude i go by amw, first off i been growing outdoors for 18 to 20 years so if you are having trouble ive probably had it and learned how to fix it. start off simple indoors. BUY pre made high quality well draining soiless mix such as sunshine mix #4, pro mix, and many others. i prefer jolly gardener custom growing mix pro line. all these mixes are well draining and contain just enough nutes for about 2 weeks , after 2 weeks introduce any high quality veg nutes gradually. i like alaskan fish emulsion 5 1 1 for veg and more bloom by alaskan fish at the onset of flower, then switch to any high phosphorus bloom booster at week 5 flower. what im getting at is start with regular nutes and then if you are still wanting to go organic use organic nutes the 3rd time around. putting alot of organics in soil is great if you understand the proper amounts. adding liquid or soluble powder type nutes wether it be organic or not is much easier than adding organics to the soil and adding just plain water. how do you germ seeds? do you know how to root cuttings? cloning is more efficent as you are growing all females gauranteed, and not wasting time and soil and electricity. outdoors i plant straight in the ground and add nutes as needed. clones are put out summer solstice to prevent early flowering and seedlings put out early spring. if i have missed anything just ask away thats what we are here for. nobody was born knowing how to grow good pot, and we all need a little help. ive been growing indoors way less time than outdoors and i learned everthing i know right here on opengrow from the best growers/ breeders around hands down period. yuo will be back on track in no time brother. peace and happy gardening, AMW BTW ,heres my anesthesia grow from clones i have a full thread going on too its called 7 anesthesia clones under 1000 watts

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i'm seeing mainly micronutrient/sulfur and magnesium deficiencies, humidity/overwatering, and PH issues

 

the proficiencies/build up are mainly nitrogen and potassium

 

this implies a lock out since they seem to have more than enough food.

 

epsom salts would probably help. the ones in the coco coir/peat probably need to be amended with some lime or something alkaline as it tends to run and turn acidic, and probably need some sand or something to absorb moisture since it tends toward holding water too well. it also appears while the medium may be too wet, the air is probably too dry.

 

do you have fans right on them? maybe they are getting dried out a bit from wind.

 

mainly: epsom salts, soil amendment, and humidity adjustment is what i would recommend. maybe back off on the feeding and watering regiment a bit. best of luck!

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@ amw: This guy is growing in India, so jolly gardener custom growing mix pro line. and alaskan fish emulsion not available there, I think.

A part of the problem could be that the quality of the available products, like the coco or maybe even the water, is not always the same.

 

Good luck, Chup, don't give up!

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I thought over fertilizing with P caused hooked leaves, but I'm not positive.

 

What's the pH of the soil? Was the coco properly leached of sodium?

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couldnt he just order these products online? i live in the boonies and there's not a growshop within 3 hours of me and i just check out a local greenhouse/flower nursery and they usually carry a great soiless mix or 2. they also carry organic and regular nutes and anything else i may need. thats where i bought the jolly gardener mix and fish emulsions nutes too. they had alaskan fish more bloom but i had to order kool bloom and fox farms stuff online. but yeah dude always check local greenhouses and flower nurseries way cheaper and readily available product and they will usually order stuff upon request too. peace and wellness to all, AMW

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you hit it on the head Fool. Chupa has to be the MacGyver of growers over there in the lowlands of India.

 

@ amw: This guy is growing in India, so jolly gardener custom growing mix pro line. and alaskan fish emulsion not available there, I think.

A part of the problem could be that the quality of the available products, like the coco or maybe even the water, is not always the same.

 

Good luck, Chup, don't give up!

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damn, i geuss everybody likes growin' good herb!lol! ive always said its more than one way to get the job done. wish you luck and good karma on yor future endeavors, AMW

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thank you for all of the replies, i was expecting opengrow to send me some notification when i get a reply but apparently not lol

 

thanks for all of the words of advice amw, unfortunately, i cannot buy any of the products that you buy, and i have to mcgyver all the way. we get different nutrients here as far as inorganic nutrients go, generally 15-30-15 or 20-20-20, all usually in granular form. fortunately, i have about 1l each of advanced nutrients GMB for now, one litre of hesi coco bloom. one major thing i haven't done is get a pH or TDS meter. fortunately that's coming today. it may be easeir for you to grow with chemical ferts over organic, but since this is my first time growing with chemicals, i feel my organic mix is easier to use in my hometown as i have grown for two years with that mix and i know how much of everything is required. also, yes i know how to germinate and clone fortunately i'm not quite at that low a level atm ;)

 

I thought over fertilizing with P caused hooked leaves, but I'm not positive.

 

What's the pH of the soil? Was the coco properly leached of sodium?

 

how do i know if the coco is properly leached of sodium? by saturating and testing runoff for TDS content?

 

thanks for all of the advice guys. i really hope the problem is with the coco's salt content :P the sooner i find

the problem the better for everyone. especially me. ;)

 

boom bholenath

El Chupa

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damn chupa, sorry to hear about your troubles dude! i had some leaf clawing issues and overwatering issues the first couple of grows too so i know what you are going through. i tried to use miracle gro soil and some granular type fertilizers and drowned and burned the shit up with too much nitrogen. my soil and nutes were my main problems then ph fluctuation due to salt buildup in the soil. soil mixes that contain time released nutes that last up to 3 months such as miracle gro just dont cut it for growing good pot in an indoor grow op, it took me 3 grows to figure that out. i probably would have done better had i not added veg nutes at all and flushed the soil real good befor flower then introduced bloom nutes/boosters gradually. you will get your groove back and look back on this as a learning experience bro. hell i still get stumped every once in a blue moon, but having opengrow right at my fingertips has been a real blessing. keep searching for your answers here and you will be back on track in no time, AMW

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i certainly hope so AMW, thank you for the good vibes

 

it's just been so long and i don't know what it is i'm doing wrong. but i will figure it out very shortly, it's just a matter of motivation

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i'm thinking of giving hydroponics a try…i'm just not so keen on growing with chemicals but i gotta give it a shot…mainly to find out whether or not the problem is nutrient/medium related or not...

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I'm no expert on coco, but if it still has a lot of sodium in it, you have to use a calcium solution to wash it out. The sodium is bound to the coco by cation exchange, and you have to replace the sodium with another cation (calcium) or no amount of water will remove it.

 

That's all I know about the untreated stuff. I've never actually treated it myself.

 

When you have a lot of sodium in soil, the pH tends to be high. I don't know about coco, I assume it's the same.

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I'm no expert on coco, but if it still has a lot of sodium in it, you have to use a calcium solution to wash it out. The sodium is bound to the coco by cation exchange, and you have to replace the sodium with another cation (calcium) or no amount of water will remove it.

 

That's all I know about the untreated stuff. I've never actually treated it myself.

 

When you have a lot of sodium in soil, the pH tends to be high. I don't know about coco, I assume it's the same.

 

i believe calcium nitrate is what is used, right? i've never understood how calcium nitrate displaces potassium and sodium ions from coco peat, but it must be something beyond my basic chemistry, probably involving the structure of the coco coir (complex?).

if that is the problem (which i doubt, as the pH was usually fairly stable at a range of 6.2-6.7, mildly fluctuating depending on the position of the pH meter itself in my old organic mix. as different ions are absorbed at different pH ranges, that is my theory for this slightly unmixed organic mixes showing less deficiencies than thoroughly mixed ones…granted, they had green leaves till the finish but never any other signs of 'over fertilization' per se. no taste problems nothing. not like anything was going to colour outside at 35C anyways ;P sigh that was in the past though.

 

hopefully i can narrow down where my problem lies and then troubleshoot. could use a lottery right about now

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Sodium tends to put pH way high in soil, so your pH doesn't sound alarming.

 

FROM THE TOO MUCH INFORMATION FILES:

 

When it comes to cation exchange, it means the peat/soil/organic matter/resin/clay or whatever it is that has the cation exchange capacity, has a negative charge built into its chemical structure: too many electrons compared to protons.

 

Water is full of dissolved ions, so what happens is that the positive ions are attracted to the coco. Sodium is a big, clunky cation with a single positive charge. Calcium is a fairly compact ion with twice the charge. it can get in closer to the surface of the coco because of its greater charge and smaller size. Once it does, it repels other positively charged ions, like sodium, from the surface of the coco. Then it can be leached out with water.

 

When it comes to replacing cations in soil, coco or a cation exchange resin, you literally have to "exchange" the cations that are in the soil or coco for cations that you supply.

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Is it possible for you to lower the temps about 10* F and get the humidity down to 50 or 60 % ? I start my seeds in a spongepot that is that is placed in a 6 pot with very low nute peat based potting soil amended with only worm castings and Sannies bacto. Over watering & over feeding are the biggest danger for seedlings I my opinion.

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Sodium tends to put pH way high in soil, so your pH doesn't sound alarming.

 

FROM THE TOO MUCH INFORMATION FILES:

 

When it comes to cation exchange, it means the peat/soil/organic matter/resin/clay or whatever it is that has the cation exchange capacity, has a negative charge built into its chemical structure: too many electrons compared to protons.

 

Water is full of dissolved ions, so what happens is that the positive ions are attracted to the coco. Sodium is a big, clunky cation with a single positive charge. Calcium is a fairly compact ion with twice the charge. it can get in closer to the surface of the coco because of its greater charge and smaller size. Once it does, it repels other positively charged ions, like sodium, from the surface of the coco. Then it can be leached out with water.

 

When it comes to replacing cations in soil, coco or a cation exchange resin, you literally have to "exchange" the cations that are in the soil or coco for cations that you supply.

 

these are the kind of posts that i like reading. i understood that perfectly, and i don't think it was from the TMI files, hehe the words 'big clunky cation' reminded me of my high school chemistry textbook!

 

that also explains why coco needs to be fed more cal. i assume it needs to be fed more Mg for the same reason. Or any micronutrient, wouldn't cations like Fe and Zn pose a bigger problem than calcium? just curious now haha

 

Is it possible for you to lower the temps about 10* F and get the humidity down to 50 or 60 % ? I start my seeds in a spongepot that is that is placed in a 6 pot with very low nute peat based potting soil amended with only worm castings and Sannies bacto. Over watering & over feeding are the biggest danger for seedlings I my opinion.

 

lowering the temp would require me to hook up an A/C to the intake. setup would cost a lot, as that kind of setup is not common in india, on top of that the electricity costs would be through the roof. dehumidifying and cooling the air is no joke here. that being said, right now, temperatures are fairly mild with an ambient 25-26. My grow room isn't any hotter, it's a vastly empty 100sq feet room with a passive intake and 12" exhaust fan and a standing fan oscillating around the plants. i am going to go back to the roots (as FOTH suggested) and try to do some amending to the natural clay soil (which is literally goopy in texture bright red as well (high iron?) ) with a bit of perlite and a bunch of organic matter…compost, vermicompost…will put some coco and vermiculite as well and see if htat goes better…in the meantime i'm also going to be getting a high pressure aeroponic setup in the beginning of january to ensure that the problem is not with the medium and to try my hand at growing with chemicals.

 

wish me luck..

 

more pics. … quite terrible really, i feel like going and hiding in a corner and never showing myself to the world again by posting these...

 

 

 

 

 

what does this deficiency look like, i must say i've never seen it before in my life. looks like the start of potato blight imho. that would make more sense, though, if i was growing potatoes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ethiopian landraces…just doing okay i guess. oh wait, the leaves have almost completed a full 360 degree curl, and the ones that haven't are yellowing. at least the buds are ok looking…even if they're smaller than a rat's dick

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Yes, other cations, like iron, can do the same thing. That causes other problems, like lowering pH too much and combining with other nutrients, making them unavailable to the plants.

 

But yes, if you have a medium with high CEC, you need more of the cation nutrients (calcium, magnesium, potassium and others) than with other media. This is the reason pH in soil has to be higher than pH in hydro -- dealing with cation exchange.

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hmm interesting…!

 

i'm still trying to figure out how long ms ethiopia has to go…she's been flowering for 14 weeks now, i'm guessing to see a burst in trich growth around 15.5-16 weeks like the indians…but then again given my rotten luck i wouldn't be surprised if i didn't see it -.-

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well this year has been kinder to me than the last: here's what i've got after 4 weeks on these two girls

can somebody tell me what kind of deficiency is going on? this is just after a day of watering with

2ml/litre of AN's GrowMicroBloom (the older one, not the pH perfect), here's how it looks:

 

Advanced-Nutrients-Grow-Micro-Bloom_1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

they are under t5's at the moment, i am looking to veg them till i can take 2-3 clones off of each one, are they growing slow or is it just me

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hey bro that looks like over fertilization, dont give them nothing but plain 6.5 ph water for the next 3 waterings. also if you are in veg you should only be giving them the grow formula. after you have watered with plain water for three waterings begin giving them half strength grow formula each time they need watering then plain water every third watering and i'll bet they look 100% better within a week or so. sometimes we just love our girls too much. remember thats a three part nute set, grow is for veg, bloom is for budding, and micro is ok every other watering. always start giving nutes at half strength and gradually increase the dosage. plain ph'd 6.5 water every third watering to prevent salt buildup in your medium and you will never see this happen again. once you get your nutes schedule down you will have a much more productive yield. and finally the last 2 weeks give them nothing but a couple tablespoons of molasses to a gallon of plain ph 6.5 water to flush all excess nutes out and to add some bulk to the yield with the molasses. sugars helps to add the weight to your buds. hope this helps you get a bountiful harvest, AMW

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hey bro that looks like over fertilization, dont give them nothing but plain 6.5 ph water for the next 3 waterings. also if you are in veg you should only be giving them the grow formula. after you have watered with plain water for three waterings begin giving them half strength grow formula each time they need watering then plain water every third watering and i'll bet they look 100% better within a week or so. sometimes we just love our girls too much. remember thats a three part nute set, grow is for veg, bloom is for budding, and micro is ok every other watering. always start giving nutes at half strength and gradually increase the dosage. plain ph'd 6.5 water every third watering to prevent salt buildup in your medium and you will never see this happen again. once you get your nutes schedule down you will have a much more productive yield. and finally the last 2 weeks give them nothing but a couple tablespoons of molasses to a gallon of plain ph 6.5 water to flush all excess nutes out and to add some bulk to the yield with the molasses. sugars helps to add the weight to your buds. hope this helps you get a bountiful harvest, AMW

 

hmm the advanced nutrients bottle said to give all 3 for veg and only bloom and micro for flowering. all equal amounts, the bottle described 4ml/litre so i started with 1ml/litre and worked my way up to 2ml/litre. So are you advising me to disregard that? Just clarifying cause i'm completely new to using nutes, i'm normally an organic grower. i was thinking the first was mag def and the second was over fert or potassium deficiency. I justtt watered the first one (killing fields) today morning (it's afternoon here right now) a few hours ago with epsom salts and the second one with a slight INCREASE in fertilizer (1.5ml fert for 700ml water - Grow Micro Bloom) so we'll see. if you're right, the problems should both become worse, and i'm willing to bet a lot more on your knowledge of deficiencies than mine ;)

 

thanks a lot for the advice brother. if my treatment doesn't work i'm jumping onto your ship.

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yes by all means dont give all 3 at once ever. advanced nutes wants us to use more of their high dollar snake oil, lol! ha!ha! never use veg nutes for flowering cannabis,never use flowering nutes for veg. its more than our girls can handle. check this shit out, anesthesia clones vegged 1 month flowering for 3 and half weeks. ive used montys veg nutes for veg, monty's root and bloom for flowering. grown in soiless mix in 4 gallon pots under 1000 watt metal halide for veg and a 1000 watt hps for flowering, they are really starting to bulk up now, enjoy and always glad to help out a fellow grower. AMW

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Your plants stop transpirating and stop growing above 82 def. F. you stated that your grow was 85 degrees? And you can't figure out why your plants are curling and drying up.

 

I find that most people *love* their plants to death. It hard to not over water, over fert and over love then when you are starting out new. Your plants look nute damaged and cooked. I've used coco coir blends and haven't had the types of issues you are showing. pH isn't as big of an issue in soil. I would recommend NOT going to hydro if you can't get your stuff to grow in coco or soil. It is way more finicky and difficult to grow in.

 

Can you find any decent soil mix to use? Also, lower your temps, you are cooking your plants.

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