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mabool

Mabool's Oregon Organic Indoor No Till 2015

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Whatup OG!

 

Well I thought it was about time to start a grow journal since I've got my new DIY LED light up and running and everything is pretty much how it's going to be going forward through this winter.

 

The setup is:

  • 200W DIY LED (Meanwell HLG-185-C1400A + 4x CXB3070 AB bin) this is my first build like this and honestly right now this thing is so bright and runs at such high current that it scares the shit out of me! But it has been running well all night and today so I'm sure I'll get used to it. Everything is running nice and cool and there has been about a 7 degree F drop in temp over using the 400w HPS dimmed to 200W.
  • 120CFM exhaust fan with Phresh carbon filter (really just there for smell)
  • 32x32x60 Lighthouse hydro bloom tent
  • Small seedling/clone/ veg tent
  • 4-bulb T5 Fluro for the seedling tent
  • Pots are 5G rigid nursery pots filled with a 1:1 mix of Happy Frog and Ocean Forest. Right now they have dutch white clover growing in them to get the myco colonies established and some living mulch going before I put the canna girls into them.
  • Small pots are 1G rigid nursery pots with pure Happy Frog to get the seedlings established. In future the rapid rooter plugs with seedlings will go directly into the 5G pots as the soil should be mellowed out in future runs.

For nutrients, the plants will be given nothing but what is in the soil, water and some humic acid every other watering or so. I also added an inch or so of compost to the top of the soil to get some life going. If deficiencies do pop up in bloom I will feed with Neptune's Harvest Fish & Seaweed, an organic hydrolyzed fish nutrient with added seaweed. This should have enough available nutrients to overcome any nutritional struggles the plant is having short term and it's also good for the soil long term, so it's a win/win!

 

The soil will not be tilled or replaced between harvests.

 

I think that's pretty much it for the setup.

 

For genetics this run we have 2 Sugar Punch fems, seen center, and one Strawberry Blue fem from World of Seeds. The strawberry blue was a freebie I know nothing about so it should be exciting to see what it can do. This is my first grow of SP as well so I'm STOKED to see this strain in action. The little seedling on the left is a Mango Tango reg seed (Elemental Seeds) and won't be blooming in this run. Mango is my favorite flavor in the world, so assuming it's female (hoping) I have high expectations for it in the next run. It will be going back under the fluro light while the other 3 bloom and will go into flower in a future run. The bigger 3 are 3 weeks from seed right now (I think...stoner lol), going into their 4th week. After the 4th week they will be transplanted into the bigger pots. A week after that they will be flipped into 12/12.

 

Waiting in the wings for future runs, I have more Mango Tango regs, Cheeseberry Haze regs, Purple Storm & Aztec Rain fems, 100+ bag seeds from a seeded ounce my wife got for cheap, some freebies of Indican's Huckleberry Kush x Bhodi's Snowqueen x Chimera Blockhead, and a couple other freebies that I can't remember right now...

 

Anyways, I'll try to post new pics often and hopefully things will get pretty exciting in the new few weeks...Cheers

 

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Wonderful setup.

 

I am looking forward to this one! Have you done this in 5 gallon containers before?

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Wonderful setup.

 

I am looking forward to this one! Have you done this in 5 gallon containers before?

Thanks Hempyfan!

 

I have grown many times in 5g containers with organics and synthetics before, but never no till, and I didn't know then what I know now about the microbes in the soil and their relationship to the plant. It's kind of interesting starting it this way, it feels all new because I am approaching it from a much different viewpoint. Instead of following a chart I am much more in tune and observant of the plants and especially the soil. I probably spend more time checking on the soil making sure it has optimal moisture content that anything else so far. I want my microherd to be happy campers!

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Sorry if I missed something, what are those clovers growing? Nice setup though.

 

Millertm

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@Millertm

 

The clovers are a living mulch, helping to keep the top layer of soil moist and keep the bacteria and fungi happy, and they also actually fix nitrogen in the soil, so they are a kind of living fertilizer. They are also there to keep the soil alive between grows, so the microherd stays active while there are no plants in the pot. From time to time they will be cut back and left on the surface of the soil for the microbes to feed on and return the nutrients to the soil.

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@Mabool

 

I'm interested to see how you work 5 gallon notills. I never tried one that small. I have seen how people did fine on their 1st run with the 5 or 7 gallon notills, but part way through the 2nd run they were having ph and nute issues and were having to (chase the rabbit) feed teas and foliar spray to keep up with the problems. {I like topdressing kelp meal and oyster shell meal ocassionally in veg.} I'm not trying to be a killjoy, just sharing what I've seen. Honestly, I hope you rock the 5 gals. and have an awesome grow show.

 

-Passion

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@stonedagain714

 

Check out The Organic Obsession's grow, I think it is in the indoor forum. That guy does no till on a higher level than I am doing and he has a ton of info in his thread. Really killer grow log!

 

@AGP

 

Thanks bro! I'm as skeptical as you are. We will just have to see. I think with any size system if you think you are going to continuously take more than you are adding back in, you will eventually have issues with deficiencies because the cycle will be broken. My theory is that no till will work with smaller pot sizes, but I may need to have more inputs more often than most bigger systems because there isn't such a large reserve of nutrients for the plant and carbon for the microbes. That's one reason I have the Fish & Seaweed fert as backup; it'll bail me out without hurting the soil microbes. One thing I do know, especially in pots this small, if my microbes aren't in turbo mode working OT, it won't work!

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you also build units. i want to tell you about a 24V 3.5A supply power supply i got made by ACME standard power (searching ACME power supply should turn some up on ebay). it is a rugged supply and made in the USA. it says on the data sheets that it can achieve efficiency up to 90%. it uses a good capacitor. the transformer heats up so instead of giving it 6 volumes of ambient air to cool, like this model needs, i use a PC fan set flat on the transformer. it is kept nice and cool from it.

 

originally i was worried about excess heat but realized the heat can be used to heat the grow chamber.

 

you are using white LEDs but i you use specifically banded nanometer light such as [a 7 band LED, a homemade multiband LED, or a full spectrum LED from ebay (which actually outputs a spread of frequencies that omit the green and yellow regions and even including the 380 and 730nm in small amounts)], then a study by Blackdog LEDs suggests that because LEDs that are frequency specific don't end up heating the leaf as much, due to the light being the kind used for photosynthesis (specifically) and not wasted as heat on the plant, then those plants need around nine degrees higher ambient temperature than under typical HID or MH lighting to achieve optimal lea temperature. since photosynthesis in plants is optimised at certain wavelengths. (also to note sativas grow well in much higher temps in the tropics.)

 

https://www.blackdogled.com/lst

 

" Specifically, if plants are being grown in optimal conditions at 75 °F under HPS lighting, the ambient air temperature would need to be raised by 9 °F or more under LED plant lights to achieve the same optimal leaf surface temperature to optimize plants' metabolism."

 

"Ideal ambient growing temperatures are known for many plants when grown under long-used artificial lights such as High Pressure Sodium (HPS), Metal Halide (MH) and Fluorescent. All of these lighting technologies generate a significant amount of light wavelengths plants cannot efficiently utilize as an unintended by-product of how they generate light. Unused light absorbed by a plant's leaf will warm it up, affecting the ideal ambient growing air temperatures. LED grow lights are relatively new on the market and allow complete customization of the spectrum. LED lighting optimized for plant growth does not produce an excess of infrared, yellow or green light like other artificial grow light technologies, including "white" LEDs. Because leaves aren't being directly warmed by these spectra that plants cannot use, plants grown under LED grow lights require warmer ambient air temperatures to achieve optimal metabolic rates."

 

 

more to the point...they used thermal imaging of plants under different lights and noted "The 240W all-white LED increased leaf surface temperature more than the equivalent 240W BD240-U light. T5 and compact fluorescent light resulted in a higher LST than the equivalent 240W BD240-U or 340W BD360-U.

 

There is a prevailing consensus that 75 °F is the ideal ambient temperature to grow Cannabis under HPS lighting without CO2 supplementation. This experimental result indicates that an 84 °F ambient air temperature is required to achieve the same optimal leaf surface temperatures when using plant-optimized LED lighting-- and that a 75 °F ambient air temperature with LED lighting would not achieve optimal leaf surface temperatures, slowing metabolic rates and leaf and flower production."

 

a 3.5A supply like i mentioned pehaps has a steady cuent compaed to a switch mode which is made cheape. i am leaning and also am planning to use switch moides p0om china. i am mentioning this powe supply becaus i pind it 0emakable study and it seems it will do the LEDs i use with it well po the longevity of the bulbs. the 7 band 100w uses 24V 3.5W as some of the LEDs are underdriven because of some reds that cannot use as much energy. if built using 3W bulbs and done DIY this may be avoided. also the 730nm used at night is supposed to shorten flower time needed at night by converting Pfr to Pr (POST #23 https://www.icmag.co...t=312411&page=2)

 

also the full spectrum LEDs may be easier to build an array for and have homogeneous light spread; however, their efficiency would seem to not be as great as the specific wavelengths used in the multi-band builds, for the reason that the plants absorb in certain peak 0egions and their absorbency drops off by slopes when moving away from them. in the full spectrum LEDs the spectrum chart also drops o around these peaks but is still outputting a good deal o energy in the deceasing slopes around the optimal peak absorption maxes.

i using a specific band such as 660nm deep red, that is right near a peak in plant absorption so it mostly all goes to the photosynthesis p0ocess to the point where enough concentration may bleach the plant (and i done 0ight increase potency according to one grower who said it was as potent as sun gown, who i may be able to re-find and cite). doing this building, the scientific variables are more easily controllable such as increasing different frequencies and making it like music, perhaps like playing a song to one's plants and being able to tweak that at different times o growth (like the veg and bloom settings on some LED rigs, but more in-depth as DIY gives more abilities). full spectrum COB is not tunable no matte i you get the individual chips, although they are probably loads better than the white CREEs many people are using. for efficiency, yield and potency i suggest looking into this stuff. another thing to mention is, that in case the lights and power supply heat isn't enough to bring the plants up to optimal temperature, perhaps some inefficient light wavelengths can be used to heat up the plant leaf.

 

3W chips are supposedly better lasting than 1W chips and 5W chips are less lasting than 3W supposedly.

 

 

this page shows absorption graphs of light for different leaf pigments and some other data

https://www.thcfarme...cannabis.61940/

"

Chlorophyll A peaks at 430 nm blue and 662nm red

Chlorophyll B peaks at 453 nm blue and 642nm red

Chlorophyll synthesis peaks 435 nm and 445 nm blue and 640 and 675 nm red

Carotenoids primarily at about 450 nm in the blue and 475 nm in the blue-green range

Xanthophyll – 400-530 nm

Violaxanthin – 480 nm and 648 nm

UVB 280nm -315nm

UVA 315nm -380nm

660 nm Deep Red: Best for Night Interruption

730 nm Far Red: Promotes Flowering of Short-Day Plants (Not Photosynthetically Active)

" the graph with those numbers give a better idea of it"

Photosynthesis, absorption amounts of plant pigments by wavelengths of light

 

so right there, there seems to be contradiction with the post from ic mag but they may mean in comparison to the other higher energy wavelengths and didn't think of 730nm being visible enough to use for night interruption.

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Interesting stuff Takeustoyourwanna.

 

One of the reasons I went with LED COB's and not individual LEDs was for simplicity, as well as the fact that these can be run much higher above the canopy (24") and still achieve desired light intensity, giving me a good spread and allowing for very simple construction. I try not to over complicate things so in this case I saw a bunch of dudes running these on RIU and getting really great results, so I went for it, going with what I understand works. Not sure what my LST is but my temp in the tent went from 86 to 81 when I switched from HPS, and the plants seem to be loving the lights so far, so I guess we'll see how it goes!

 

There are some dudes that add 660nm reds and deep blues to supplement these cobs, but I didn't want to get that into it, so I went basic and went with the 4 CXBs. I'm limited in tools and time (I have 2 small kids and my wife and I both work full time) so in this case, this is me keeping it simple. If it sucks, I'll do something different. :tu

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amazing idea with the clover

 

sannie has myccorhiza mix that helps the roots which has bacteria too.

 

paul stamet's company fungi perfecti sells a myccorhiza mix with bacteria and trichoderma.

called mycogrow in micronized form. it is probably the best formulation i have seen yet for soil. great white myccorhiza mix has one more type of bacteria added and brewers yeast but less fungi than stamet's version. mixing those two would probably give you the most diverse micobiome besides getting add ins from native soil (which may be missing most of what the mixes carry while having other ones [unfortunately, possibly nasty stuff too]).

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I second Fungi Perfecti myco.  If your in the U.S. and you if you can take one of his classes.  It will be worth it. I have seen few "internet" grows begin 5 gallon containers but not finish 2 rounds. If I was going to do it I would do a giant fabric container and add worms to the mix. That is all I think I would do different but I am not experienced on this style.

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yea, i don't know about LST myself either. i do know that there are COBs with 7 Bands and Full Spectum that are sold here, in case you look into it

 

http://stores.ebay.com/tiaochongyi?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

search terms

>7 band

>multiband

>full spectrum

 

 

i got this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Multiband-7-band-Full-Spectrum-High-Power-LED-Plant-Grow-Light-grow-flower-/251970378009?hash=item3aaa9ad919

it actually runs on 87.5W max because part of the LEDs have to unde-run so the reds don't over-run. that is 25V 3.5A. 24V is more accessible so mine runs at a meagre 84W (good or bad depending on application, purpose)

 

and this CPU cooler heatsink with lens that holds on the chip to the heatsink http://www.ebay.com/itm/50W-100W-high-power-LED-radiator-tube-CPU-fan-lens-reflector-cup-fixing-ring-/251522863737?hash=item3a8fee5279

 

the holder is made of plastic and i am looking into how to do this with hacksawed and drilled thin aluminum from home depot, but it works if not overtightened, with a little bit of CPU thermal paste, arctic silver radioshack brand, added and put together. the down side is the lens puts light out at a 60 degree angle, which is great if you want to keep it up high. i was told it is good to use the 150 something degree it emits naturally and get it close to the canopy, so i got a 120degree lens to test it out and see. http://www.ebay.com/itm/90-120degree-44mm-Lens-Reflector-Collimator-Fixed-bracket-F-20W-30W-50W-70W-100w-/261955083446?hash=item3cfdbd5cb6:g:Ki8AAOSwjVVVmDhN

 

 

i happened to buy from those sellers so i cited them

 

with the full spectrum this is a variable option page to get a good idea of cost with driver included

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Grow-Chip-Bulb-10W-20W-30W-50W-100W-LED-Driver-Supply-High-Power-Waterproof-/262091063276?var=&hash=item8296303382 i just got foot in mouth with that one, as the 100W driver gets over 95% efficiency (but the efficiency o light po the plants o the chip itself is still p0obably under the specific banded chips)!

 

there is even this whopping 200W actual LED with driver for 150USD

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200w-led-chip-400-840nm-20000LM-full-spectrum-led-grow-lights-200W-LED-Driver-/262088337691?var=&hash=item82961179c1

it would need a good heatsink though.

 

it is hard to find this stuff unless you happen to stumble on it or get a reference, i hope this makes it easier/gives you and others a start

 

last and definitely not least, check these guys out.

++++++++i stumbled on this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-Band-3W-leds-Full-Spectrum-300W-LED-Grow-Light-Medical-Indoor-Plant-Growing-/181535758573?hash=item2a445fd8ed

9 bands, includes a couple white LEDs, it is a 3W Epiled array. "Wavelength(9 Bands) 430~440nm, 450~460nm, 610-615nm, 620~630nm, 650~660nm, and white, IR (730nm) ,380 - 400nm"

it seems like it is definitely a low cost and high quality model, they use Epileds and they don't overdrive them, if you check one thing out, that may be the best.

 

 

 

here is their store

http://stores.ebay.com/ledlightseller?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

 

they also sell COB multi bands with 90 degree and 150 degree models too (they don't seem to have UV, only " Spectrum of Light: 660nm 640nm 440nm 460nm 470nm 525nm 730nm")

 

for LEDs i read it is recommended to use LED viewing glasses to protect the eyes. i have UV goggles but they make specific ones.

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One day under the new LED lights. They really seem to be loving it, and I'm relieved after all the time and money I spent building it. The proof will be in the harvest though. Even the clover looks thicker!

 

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I second Fungi Perfecti myco. If your in the U.S. and you if you can take one of his classes. It will be worth it. I have seen few "internet" grows begin 5 gallon containers but not finish 2 rounds. If I was going to do it I would do a giant fabric container and add worms to the mix. That is all I think I would do different but I am not experienced on this style.

 

I've used that product before, but I'm sure I wasn't doing it correctly, as I was still using a lot of synthetics back in those days. Couldn't really tell you if it worked or not because I had so much other stuff going into my soil back in those days...his prices are quite reasonable though. If I remember right I only paid around $5 for the little bag of it a few years ago.

 

I am using Bioag VAM as I saw it recommended all over the net. I am using their Ful Power as well, and I swear the plants look happier after I water with it. Diversity in organics is almost never bad though, so maybe I will pick up some fungi perfecti one of these days...

 

I may move to a big fabric container one day but you really have to commit when you do that. That much soil is difficult to move once in place. Next year I will probably be building a storage shed out back so I can dedicate the full 10x12 attached indoor storage room to growing. Right now my grow space is shared with random stuff like tools and winter tires...not ideal. Once I can commit to that I will likely do bigger containers and bigger plants.

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Ive not seen bioag vam but I understand its good stuff.

 

I have seen many types of myco's and bacto's. I have not seen a difference in results between the companies I have seen. Which is about all of them I think. I would go by price. Kelp4less.com also has good products and pricing and anywhere else that has a real product should be good.

 

I hear you on the moving of containers. This is why I have not played with this style of growing as of yet. I tend to think the addition of the earthworms in the containers need to be in bigger containers. I have done test and 3 & 5 gallon containers with added worms. No worms at end (root jungle). so I think the containers are just too small and/or I did something ill to them. Anyways, this had my thinking that for added worms to media it needed to be in bigger containers.

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i read at this link below, in post #18 by Seamaiden, that in an experiment she did, "Ha! I've been doing an experiment to help me with this. I've got four sets of clones--Cap's bennies, Roots Oregonism, Down to Earth (these are all bennies), rooting hormone (I have Greenlight on hand), and a control group using nothing. So far the DTE clones have died off. Cap's clones are growing best, then the RO and control clones look the same. Media was Gardener & Bloome Eden Valley Blend potting soil."

 

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/organic-cloning-just-realized-ive-been-using-poison.31634/

 

i checked out the caps bennies and they are sold as biowar, on ebay for $31. there are 3 types. root, foilar and nutes. the ingredients listing can be seen6 on6 the ebay6 page by clicking on the back panels, under the listing and then 0ight clicking and clicking view picture. they have a bunch of stuff that microgrow does not. i believe of that stuff, they are bacteria. on their website there is a .pdf that tells how to brew their biobrew. the microgrow can be brewed but the original organism ratios would be offset and trichoderma would maybe eat good fungi.

 

i figure this biobrew, caps bennies, can be used in conjunction with the microgrow to add a bunch o beneficial organisms that would be too numerous for the trichoderma in the microgrow to eat. the microgrow still seems to have the most fungal additives, so combining the two would seemingly make a really spectacular soil biome. the directions on the biowar, even state how to use it to teat root rot!

 

http://ogbiowar.com/shop/

 

here is the ebay sellers site

http://www.ebay.com/usr/draphwest?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

 

this section has the full selectable menu and is titled "for the farm only", be sure to look here because, for some reason, there are other listings from the same seller where the 8ounces of one of the 3 packs costs $50 instead of the $30 at this link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230761890387

 

i saw this last night and it looks amazing

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I'm a BioAg fan now for a while. If you don't already know- follow the bioag instructions without going over- u can go 1/2 strength or less even, just can't push these as u would hydro nutes as if for production. Very underrated "Nute" company.

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5 days under new lights. I will be transplanting today into the big pots, and giving them their first bend. Next weekend I will flip the lights and continue training through the stretch.

 

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looking good in here mabool, keep it up.

 

 

Do you buy the clover or import from outside? curious.

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looking good in here mabool, keep it up.

 

 

Do you buy the clover or import from outside? curious.

Thanks bud! I bought it on Amazon. About $10 for as much seed as I will ever need for indoor...

 

The transplanting pretty much decimated most of the clover. I wish I had chosen smaller pots to transplant. Oh well, live and learn. In future the seedlings will be going straight in the big pots so no matter anyways.

 

Here they are transplanted and bent, in their final homes. They should recover and bush out over the next week. Sugar punches on the left, strawberry blue and mango tango on the right.

 

Next Friday, we switch to 12/12!

 

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An update!

 

Been a busy couple of weeks for me. The wife is working more, which means more time watching my offspring, and at this age they barely give me time to shit, much less take care of my hobbies. I have to run out to my grow room and water real quick before they realize I'm gone!

 

The plants are starting to look a little more like I want them to now. I have to remember I only have 200 watts of LEDs in the tent right now, so growth will not be what I am used to with 1k+. So I waited an extra week to let the plants spread out a little more and flipped them a couple days ago. Next run I will probably double the wattage. These LEDs run so cool, I think I could slam 600w of LED into this tent no problem! Highest temp has been 75 and lowest has been 73.

 

I think I had the lights a little too high up as well, as the baby Mango Tango I had in the tent stretched like crazy. The Strawberry Blue went crazy too, but the Sugar Punch really didn't stretch much. The strawberry blue is quite a strong and vigorous plant but is showing signs that it will get out of control. I wish I had topped this one now, but it's too late now so I will just have to stay on top of bending it. I think in future I will take the time to top and then LST.

 

The SP are staying nice and compact and are starting new shoots and bushing out. I think over the next few weeks they will develop into really nice little bushes. Exciting!

 

Enough chatter. Pic! Strawberry Blue on the right, Sugar Punch on the left.

 

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The few sugar punch I ran always stretched a lot once flipped to 12/12. Looking great and 600 watts of leds in there should be fine. Optimal I would bet even.

 

Looking great by the way and I can relate to the kids comment haha.

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Took a few more pics today as the kids aren't home right now and I finally get some time to myself. The plants seem to be doing just fine so far in their first week or so of bloom. I'm not sure how long it's been as I don't really keep track, but it's been about a week. Tops are forming nicely and although I've been fucking with them daily, bending and clipping in strategic places, they seem to be handling it alright. I'm going to leave them alone for the rest of the week unless absolutely necessary and see how they do when I'm not bugging them...

 

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