Jump to content
  •     ai.php.gif instagramlogo.jpg

Lotus

Female vs male in parent selection?

Recommended Posts

@FOTH

 

So basically there's no way of knowing unless you try. And even then you won't necessarily know but might not care to know because you got lucky. Lmao. I'd love to have the means to study this with thousands of plants!

 

Scientiffically, you could get pretty close to guesing by using DETAILED accounts and records of all offspring within 2 seperate strains, then select for what you are seeking. Then pul out the most basic shit you can from those details, do the Punnet square, then breed, then grow out the beans to see how close you are to what you observed in the parents. A buncha ways I know to select parents, but I'll go back to what I said, KNOW YOUR PARENTS WELL. I made the backcrosses of c99, apollo 13, yeti, lui, to basically do just that. Grow those strains out, let someone see em that know the plants well, see if the beans are worth crossing into another plant, if so, pick a mate :) Stable genes require less pheno hunting i.e. plant count to search parents. Wide variations in offspring you may grow beans out a few generations before you use it in a cross. So many variables to all this shit brutha lol... Good topic tho :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, also heri always adds a few characteristics to any female he hits. Its not subtle and definitely not overwhelming. Just the Heri punch as I guess Id call it. A lil fuely flavors and hard buds and usually a lil more branchy and MOST of the time the terp profile is enhanced. I definitely wanna send some nugs in next run for terp profiles and all the other tests ran. Ive never seen or heard of testing males, but by god it may help in male selection process! You test say 5 of your fave males from a select strain, of thos 5 pick the boy with the highest content of all you can test for..Or the widest array of terps and thc/cbd etc...Soooo wide a range this plant can be taken, many directions and roads to get to an end product. Just like grow methods, ferts, lights, indoor vs outdoor, always room for discussion lol..

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pick the boy with the highest content of all you can test for..Or the widest array of terps and thc/cbd etc

 

Breeding for high THC or CBD involves just one single allele.

For terpenes, there are at least 50 involved.

Then your Punnet square becomes like playing Rubix cube blindfolded.

 

Rubiks-Revenge-scrambled.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You cant do a rubiks cube blind folded? Easy peasy lol

The punnet is the basic of the basic as I said. Not for terps and all, thats where SCIENTIFIC testing comes in :) Good to be in the US right now

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Promoting the impure tempation are you? Lol. I still have not been able to get clarification on this: do colloidal silver reversed fems cause hermaphroditism? Or is the danger in genetically prone hermies? My instincts tell me genetic hermies, sadly, are out, because they've evolved in places with harsher climates and less of an immediate population. So to survive they hermied. Problem is, they may possess other unique qualities that are sought after...This leads into high altitude, photosynthesis sensitive, short season acclimated strains, which can hermie and autoflower unless all environmental conditions are met. My question is, genes present in pollen and calyx of a hermie plant are identically as dominant or recessive either way they express themselves? So hypothetically if another plant would also hermie...would the resulting cross, regardless of parentage sex, pass on genes identically? THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT HURT MY HEAD!!!

 

 

 

 

 

I dove into the hermie question curios about my Kali's. I found there are two reasons for hermies, they are genetically disposed to it, or they are stressed into it. If they are stressed to hermie, i.e., heat, the resulting hermaphrodite does dot necessarily possess the genetic disposition to hermie. Hence, I get all female seeds, with no Hermes.

 

Here's something else to consider, Diesel, the most famous strain almost ever, supposedly originated from a seed from a bag of pot bought at a Dead concert in Indiana. Odds are , that was a hermie seed, as I've had lots of strains with single seeds on them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this post on another site thought ti was a pretty good read

 

Breeders of today if we speak about those guys whose strains are mostly based off existing elite clones and so on. That's just amateur pollen chucking like we all do at our homes. Of course some guys have more skills and great talent for that than others, or more contacts/chances to source better genetics and cuts, or more resources and opportunities to make bigger selections, or more knowledge and tools to do that in the most professional possible way, but that's still far from real plant breeding. Any of the amateur and humble guys from the 90s dutch or swiss scene worked with much higher numbers back then and were closer to the breeder figure than most new school "breeders".

 

But it's not always about the numbers only but about the goals and criteria. There are small underground seedbanks releasing new strains after years of work. Maybe they can't grow 1,000s or even 100s in one time, but they invest years after years improving their strains until they get what they are looking for. At least that's something, not simply getting new elites or hyped strains each season and just putting another reversed elite or a decent looking male (of course one that wasn't thoroughly progeny-tested either) over all those clone-onlys. Maybe backcrossing a few times on the cut again and that's it, but WTF? Anyone can do that, no big deal, right? No breeding either. Just the damn trend of getting a clone elite and making a seed line off it by bakcrossing any other trendy strain. Or simply having the hope that elite x elite will result in nice strains and most growers will be happy, so why bothering much? lol

 

Like Chaos said, most botanists or plant breeders will definitely laugh at the canna-breeders and I can understand why. Real plant breeders create brand new varieties that are:

 

1 .homogeneus

2. distinctive

3. recognizable by its characteristics

4. recognizably different from any other existing variety

5. remain unchanged through the process of propagation (offspring has the same quality of parent plants).

 

Under the 1991 Act of the UPOV Convention, if a plant variety grouping does not meet these criteria, it should not considered to be a variety. After understanding that, the Convention also defines a breeder as:

 

"the person who bred, or discovered and developed, a variety".

 

As for legit cannabis strain breeders I will only include those that created brand new strains with original landrace/heirloom material or meeting the criteria above for new varieties like Sam Skunkman, DJ Short, Charlie Garcia (CBG), Tom Hill, Mario (Delicatessen) and probably a bunch of others I don't really remember or even know in the underground scene. But that's the point, they grow landraces or heirloom strains, they study them, they think which one could match with each other and be 1+1=3, they use their big experience to follow a path, fix the long term goals, cull in consequence and that's it, results can be seen after years of work.

 

Then we have people like Nevil, Breeder Steve, Grimm Bros, Eddie Redeeker (TFD), Simon Serious or all the new school guys for example like Bodhi, Subcool, Moonshine, Karma and all those talented guys outcrossing other existing hybrids, heirlooms or elite plants bred by other people before and giving them a twist, improving or combining them in order to create slightly different hybrids based off those, sometimes with character, sometimes not.

 

Finally we can't forget about all the oportunists and bussiness men bunch like Shantibaba, Arjan, Ben Dronkers, Dinafem, DNA, Barney's or all the US and Europe guys chucking on Chem, GG#4, GSC and all the trendy elites and cup winners nowadays. Let's get real, they are just looking for the quick buck and easy props but within a few years, no one will remember anything about them and their strains. They aren't doing anything even close to breeding but taking advantage on other's peoples works and hiring third parties to produce their seeds. You can see how each year they need to release new strains and invest a lot in marketing to prevail, guess why? Because it's the only way they have to keep attracting customers.

 

For me there another thing I consider certainly important in cannabis breeding: the breeder's taste and signature. Most strains from a breeder should have a certain distinctive character, be it the structure, the flowering times, the smell, the effect and so on. It's the breeder's signature that makes every single strain to be part of a bigger group of recognizable strains bred under the same criteria and style. Grow strains from DJ Short and all of them have certain similarities that are totally DJ's indeed, be the type of high, the colors... that's what made him famous actually and how he developed a timeless signature in cannabis breeding!

 

But crossing Chem with GSC or any other trendy elite from the past season... damn, how the fuck can you even call that your own breeding work if it's 100% based off other people's work and criteria? What's actually your real contribution to the work? Absolutely none, just some pollen tossing that even a kid could do. Problem is that most growers don't even take the time to educate themselves on history or botany basics and because of this, everyone wants to make money off them!

 

Another important point, many growers don't need breeders, they are just looking for potent strains to get wasted or grow what's fashionable this season, actually they prefer strains to be similar to each other, not something really different. So for this kind of customer this shouldn't be a problem at all. Things are gonna change though, times are changing and the grower's and pothead's profiles as well. Time will say.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I look at the whole issue of seed making and breeding and I see it like this. The market welcomes all and I for one like this. I like that people like Indy do their thing and I like that people like Sannie and Esko do their thing and I am glad for those who work the wild lines into the prizes of tomorrow. I have love and respect for all in this!

 

Their are real differences in the "type of breeder" but at times this can get blurry but in the end, if a person puts a genuine effort and caring into what they do. I cannot throw a stone nor should I. It is a great thing that so many seed options exist today and at a good to high quality.

 

For an evolving industry, I kinda like how the genetics are going at many levels. Lots of options at good to great quality and prices. Lots of passion and love for the plant! This is what we want and many have been waiting for. Before I get to upset over the nuances of such issues, I am first thankful we get to have these issues in the first place. This is a bit indicative we have come a long way in terms of cannabis acceptance and growth.

 

I specifically see the level of breeder who works with the latest breeds as breeding individual interested in working with the latest works on the market. This is indicative of a successfull market and should be more embraced. I am not saying for this group to misrepresent nor do I believe that those here that breed like that do represent their seeds as their own "genetic works" but a working of established genetics. I see it no different than in hip hop or reggae or whatever music that samples other musicians work.

 

Now, I see that some tend to feel these types of breeders are a negative side to the industry. I do not feel this way. It is also not easy for them to do this either. While not the same as other breeding levels (should not be compared to each other) it is not without difficulty and risk. These breeders are subject to the stability of the lines they work with and since they tend to regularly work with different lines the risk is high compared to breeders who work with known plants. When the lines are great life is good but get a hermie issue or dont live up to latest standards and shine wears off. These breeders should not be looked down on just for being that type of breeder. It is part of a healthy scene and I am proud to see it.

 

It also serves a good purpose for the breeders who made the lines to get more marketing of their lines. Great budget ways to see several lines at once that will often leave the grower quite happy. If a grower really has interest in the parent they may just go buy the parent seeds from the main breeder where otherwise that grower may not have consider that genetic before.

 

I support all levels of ethical breeding. The market and scene has room for them all. It is natural for elbowing and jockeying for room as this industry unfolds but it is all good. We should support each other and not be prejudiced on old views from past times. All things cannabis are evolving now and the quality and ethics of this level of breeder has come a long way and I at least believe that enough to write it!

 

On another note:

They do have punnett squares that are about as complicated as a rubicks cube blindfolded but really I speak punnett squares to give someone an idea of how genetics work than per say for someone to sit and figure out with complicated issues.

 

The aspect of linked genes and probably some others (I only sound smart here) is a big monkey wrench and terpines I think are one of the more difficult to "fine tune" as is my understanding. But for early basic work on a line a generic punnett square can help with a direction but as you get more fine tuned it may not be so simple.

 

Hempyfan,

Jah, Bless!

 

Editing in, regardless of the "name" used to describe how someone works with known lines or and/or those who create the original line I do not think anyone should be disrespected and/or ethical work be shunned.

 

In the past history of many forums their has been dramas that has made this kind breeding work suspicious and sketchy as for others who have not seen such events may not appreciate that view exist with others and is just a weird aspect that exist I think due to this disparity from the younger and those who are more forum aged but as I look at the issue with modern views I do not see it the same way today.

 

The industry has evolved and these are not so much today scams by people acting like they made from a to z when they are not. I do not think some views have evolved yet as well. So the combination of the issue I think clouds alot of respected views on the subject.

 

How many times have people been told to plant a seed. Lets not get picky with what to do with it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True hermaphrodites produce an equal amount of male and female flowers.

 

The inter-sex trait is something different.

That's a survival mechanism.

 

Forcing a female to produce pollen does not change the (dominance of) the genes itself.

The pollen are female sex cells, just in a different shape.

Does that answer your question?

 

Yes it does...thank you!!! Very enlightening honestly!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Breeding without males saves you half of that precious time.

And also leaves you with only half of the gene pool Even sannie uses males in early part of breeding programs . if this was the case like you say ,, one would think there be no purpose for a male species specially a old plant like MJ would of got rid of the male side long ago in its evolution , Have they ?? Male plants have a evolutionary purpose don't kid your self its selecting the right male looking for the right qualities that you want to add into the equation

Taken from Page 63 of Treating Yourself issue 25...

 

1. Resin Production and Potency – the quickness, the amount and where it is being produced will all be factors. An eye glass will be the most accurate means to view this trait.

2. Aroma – if there is a distinct aroma or something interesting to the nose.

3. Quickness to flower and release of pollen maturation and speed to reach pollen dispersal.

4. Internode spacing – based on the Fibonacci ratio of 1:1.6, this ratio is used in many applications, one of which is a rating of beauty and another in stability and consistency of some genetic factors in a plants makeup.

5. Leaf structure and Stature – whether it is more leaning to sativa or indica and how the plant grows in visible structure.

6. Resistance to hermaphrodism – no visible signs that the male flower has any naturally occurring female pistilates combined within the male flower.

7. Vigor and fitness – visible factors that show the plant to behave in a healthy normal growth pattern.

8. Depth of coloration – of the plant from lime green to deep dark green (ornamental trait)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Taken from the MNS article on hobby breeding by Shanti...

 

The importance of selecting plants for the traits that are useful to the breeder/grower is the main reason genetics have evolved as they have. Male plants of this species need to be carefully selected to avoid a lot of laborious work, which means one will need to do a lot of testing of F1 seed made from a particular male to verify if the sex linked traits are real or not. Males that auto flower irrespective of daylight hours are normally eliminated to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted male traits. Males that flower too quickly or too tall are also not the best for breeding since they put too much energy into fiber production which is not the trait one is looking for in a medicinal plant. Males that have large hollow main stems are sought out rather than males that are more pith-filled stems - the main reason are that large hollow stemmed males are better THC producers than other plants. Males that produce tight floral clusters rather than airy sparse floral clusters are usually better to breed with. Finally if you rub your fingers against the stem of a developing male and are able to get strong odors or aromas (terpines) you will be advised to use these males as trichrome production and flavor are directly related to plants that produce odors early on. There are several other traits to look for in a male but these are rather advanced and need microscope help which is not really relevant for the hobby grower/breeder.

_________________

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And also leaves you with only half of the gene pool...

 

Every selection of individual plants leads to a narrowing of the gene pool,

it's happens when you do 1 on 1 mating.

What's your point?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every selection of individual plants leads to a narrowing of the gene pool,

it's happens when you do 1 on 1 mating.

What's your point?

 

Thats your thoughts ??? i find it to be untrue to many bias opinions but the truth is It is clear that no consensus has been reached on the overall impact of modern plant breeding on crop genetic diversity. The temporal patterns of crop genetic diversity are largely inconsistent with our perception that modern plant breeding reduces crop genetic diversity (Gepts 2006) and are also incompatible with the fact that newly released crop varieties become phenotypically more uniform (Duvick 1984; Bowman et al. 2003). Such a discrepancy suggests that we may still be far away from understanding crop genetic diversity under modern plant breeding.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4624815/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I make a regular cross, 1 on 1, and flower out the females for weed, half of the available genepool ends up on the compost heap, the males.

What do we need the Y-chromosome for?

 

And the overall impact of modern plant breeding on crop genetic diversity has very little to do with this topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I make a regular cross, 1 on 1, and flower out the females for weed, half of the available genepool ends up on the compost heap, the males.

What do we need the Y-chromosome for?

 

And the overall impact of modern plant breeding on crop genetic diversity has very little to do with this topic.

 

Are you serious ??? the Y chromosome is rather really important its previous held beliefs were that the Y chromosome functioned as a regulator of male phenotypic expressions such as mass or production of males

thats the thing with science its always changing specially when it comes do DNA etc for instance

the Y chromosome is a necessity for for the continues survival of many species

New studies have said the importance of Y chromosome is also to combat disease and pests could this be why the moncultured Banana's died off from panama disease ???

If i had the space would love to do a side by side fem plant vs reg seed disease induced platforms 100 percent organic may be introduce broad mites , or some type of mites i wonder which one would survive longer

but most importantly when sexing plants the male X Y and the female XX 10 chromsomes from both parents go into the equation

When feming or like you said no need for a male your only playing with 10 chromosomes and missing the other 10 from the male ..

Now i am no scientist but mother nature has been doing pretty fucking good job at what she does But as tech and studies get better changes are being applies to old beliefs ,, thats just the way it goes i guess

But again were looking for a wide variety in F1's and determining what we move forward after finding that unique plant when breeding thats what its all about right then perhaps reversing to lock in triats etc

Males are very important part of the game

A peak of my Purple train wreck male tight lateral branching something that has potential possibly ??? but will see what he has to offer with the cherry pie i been growing last 2 years might be a game changer possibly bring yields up is my guess but we will see

 

Phenotypic expression

 

The malleability of phenotypic expression among the Sativa/Indica crosses must also be noted. The variability of phenotypic expression among the f2 generation of a truly polar (pure Sativa/pure Indica) P1 cross is quite phenomenal. The second generation f2 crosses will exhibit the full spectrum of possibilities between the original parents – extreme Indica, extreme Sativa, and everything in between.

 

However, regardless of any particular phenotype selected from among this given f2 cross, future generations may drift radically. Depending on the presence (or lack) of a number of environmental triggers, an f2 Indica phenotype may be coaxed more toward Sativa traits, or an f2 Sativa phenotype may be coaxed more toward Indica expression. The key is environmental conditions.

 

This is what distinguishes the truebreeding, ancient acclimated, region of origin varieties – especially the tropical and equatorial Sativa – from the crosses that have happened since. The ancient specimens have a much narrower genotype range, and therefore a more specific phenotype than their contemporary crosses despite environmental conditions. It is up to future adventurers to provide the best possible environmental considerations, along with the best possible genetic considerations, in order to resurrect the legendary happy flowers of yore.

gallery_11738_5402_459698.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, my brain is starting to bleed.

 

Let's review what we know so far, boy's have a penis, girls have a vagina. After that, things get a bit fuzzy to me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On another note

 

People on these forums have a tendency to call all fem seeds selfed, but that is not the case, most all female seeds is not made with a female transformed to male as the pollen source and then the pollen put on the same exact female clones as the pollen was created from. Most all female seeds are made with two different female clones one transformed to male for a pollen source. That is not really selfing as in the first case.

Real selfing of the same clone will cause a loss of vigor, due to inbreeding, just a few generations and the plants have serious problems with vigor, health and reproduction, for sure, I have done it lots. As said it is a very valuable tool for breeding but not an easy one for novice breeders to use. After 3-4 generations of being selfed many plants will not even dehisce pollen properly they are functionally sterile. There are ways to restore the vigor loss but it requires years and lots of plants, many unrelated selfed lines need to be created that contain the trait you are aiming for, and combined at the end to restore the lost vigor.

I know of no Homogenous Cannabis varieties, except for work we did and never released, if you check with a Cytology lab any variety you think is Homogenous will be found to be in fact Heterogeneous, you can make a Homogenous Cannabis variety, you will not find one in nature.

-SamS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geez, regurgitated info copy n pasted..Thanks for all the unorigional ideas. Any way you can form an opinion without using someone elses words? Dieseldog said it best, so far you got males have wankers, women have vags. The rest is all a buncha crap lol...Good to see copy n pasting is still in use tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geez, regurgitated info copy n pasted..Thanks for all the unorigional ideas. Any way you can form an opinion without using someone elses words? Dieseldog said it best, so far you got males have wankers, women have vags. The rest is all a buncha crap lol...Good to see copy n pasting is still in use tho.

 

i JUST told you 2 weeks ago to not be disrespectful to members here, mate.

 

 

(you may think you are pissing on bagwell ... but mate, get it in your head

that you are pissing on all of us here by lowering the stardard with this kind

of behaviour).

 

the staff will have to chat over at mod-section about petty fights and unneces-

sary provoked drama here ... until we find a solution, go to the corner, plz.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one will ever be correct without a doubt. Doubt is what drives humanity to know. But to "know" is a personal state of mind. A state of belief, based on facts that corroborate the belief, until perhaps new facts reintroduce doubt. Answering with questions can be more powerful.

 

In the end, getting angry at doubt calls for personal reflection...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...