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2nd Grow - Shackzilla (fem.) - 150W LED - 400W HPS


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#1 RooftopStoner

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 07:15 AM

Hello OG's! As I've mentioned in my introductory post, I'll be starting my second grow shortly. I've been preparing the last couple of days trying to optimize my starting conditions. This is where I'm currently at.

Let's begin with the equipment.

Hardware
  • HomeBox 80 (0,64m² or ~7 sq. ft)
  • Hans-Panel LED 150W (vegging)
  • 400W Osram Nav-T Super HPS (flowering)
  • Adjust-A-Wing reflector
  • 420 m³/hr exhaust + filter
  • 2x 5W clipfans
  • 6x 3.5L and 11L pots (0.9 gal and 2.9 gal)
Soil & Nutes
  • Eazy Plugs
  • 20L BIOBIZZ Light Mix
  • 50L BIOBIZZ All-Mix
  • BIOBIZZ Grow
  • BIOBIZZ Bloom
  • BIOBIZZ Root Juice
  • BIOBIZZ Acti-Vera (freebee)
Seeds
  • Shackzilla (fem.)
So far so good. Now comes the interesting part. Everybody can buy good equipment but it's what you do with it that counts.

The plan

I want 6 ladies in 11L (2.9 gal) pots in my tent.

I'll pop my beans by soaking them overnight and then letting them sit between damp tissues at 25ºC / 77ºF. Once they sprout they'll be moved to Eazy Plugs which I'll put in a small greenhouse at the same temperature and high humidity – 80-100%. When the first roots show the babies will be bounced to 3.5L (0.9 gal) pots filled with Light Mix. From this point on the girls will be tanning under 150W LED. Thats where the fun begins. :)

I'm limited in height. The plants are allowed to be max. 60cm / 24” so I can maintain a distance of 30cm / 12” to the lamp. I've seen Sannie write that Shackzilla will stretch by a good 300% so I'll have to induce flowering (switch to 12/12) at 20cm / 8” latest. That means I'll probably have to repot when my girls are already starting to flower. Is this a proper NO-GO or can I get away with it if I'm careful?

I'll be using my 150W LED panel for vegging and jump to 400W HPS when I switch from 18/6 to 12/12. I'll repot to the “big” pots (11L / 2.9 gal) when I see the roots coming out of the small pots. In my first grow I think I raped my plants with nutes. Good thing they didn't call for help – I'd be in trouble :D This means this time I'll restrain from giving nutes until the girls ask for it. Thinking about it, I'll probably won't need to give them any nutes in vegging since the soil has enough for that short period of time. And once I repot, All-Mix supposedly lasts for 6 weeks before one should supplement nutes externally. I'll keep that in mind.

I'm also thinking about topping my Shackzillas to make best use of my limited grow space as I'm afraid they'll get too tall. Or supercropping. That seems pretty cool too. What are your opinions on both in my particular case, OG's?

I would love if someone experienced could answer this and whether it's O.K. to repot in flowering. Any other advice & criticism is always appreciated.

I'll be starting my grow in about two weeks since I'm heading for the seaside for a bit before I'm stuck at home for 3 months.

I'm already excited and can't wait to begin my second grow.

Peace

If you have 5 minutes to spare, drop by and check out my current grow: 6 x Shackzilla fem.

#2 Damar

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 12:00 AM

Nice intro write-up Rooftop! Very much "my style" hehe. I can understand your excitement, just remember not to go crazy. My impatience in my grow was unnecessary.

But back to your question, I've repotted at the start of flower without huge consequences. I'm not an extremely experienced grower by any means, but in my old college grows I waited until the plants showed sex, tossed the males, and repotted the girls. Still got tons of amazing bud. But you've got fems... if you're worried about re-potting when they're already in flower, why don't you just repot before they flower? Still, I think there is a 1-2 week period of transition that isn't considered "true" flowering.

If you are limited in your vertical height, I would suggest any form of Low Stress Training. Left alone, the plants will grow in their natural structure, which varies in diff strains, but undeniably always has a tall main cola. I used a bunch of strings to form an impromptu screen to create a more even canopy throughout my DR60.

I like seeing someone else using the Hans LED panel! I think it's good for small grows and beginning growers. Forgiving on the heat-side of things, low power use, but still makes great bud at a great gram/watt ratio (if you're into that kinda thing). But you're only using it for veg. Either way!

Take it easy man, and good luck! What other hobbies do you have? Because you will go stir-crazy if you sit trying to watch these things grow.

#3 agreenpassion

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:37 AM

Shackzilla as a fem. Sannie product, I'm guessing you won't have to trash any males. :) So you could just screen them. That would be much easier for maintaining a low and relatively even canopy. Topping for 4 or 8 or more mains is a common practice. But many plants need a week or (sometimes much more) more time to heal up and produce. With SCROG you could put less plants in and give them a couple more weeks in the bigger pots. Train the tops where you want them and let the rootmass get more developed which will potentially increase the yield. If you haven't yet-- google Screen of Green maybe watch a couple online vids to get u started if interested. It's pretty easy once u get the hang of it.

Supercropping as I consider it stem cracking is a method I've used regularly in certaim instances. Also an option is LST. Bending and tying down the tops and mains to control height as well as spreading the hormomes (specifically Auxins) out from the bet main top to the side and lower brances. It can create a more regular average bud size, with less small buds and less huge top buds. No jumbo top buds may also means less risk of mold if u have air exchange, humidity or temp. Issues.
You got lots and lots of options. That's just a couple techs I use to make some of my girls put out. :)

But I am wondering...Do you also have an intake fan for fresh air and so that the 420 m³/hr exhaust fan doesn't implode the tent? What about an occilating fan to keep air movement through the plants?

There were a few more questions u had but I gotta get back to trimming. (snip snip snip)
Good luck. Hope you like you're 'Zilla buds.

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#4 barney

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 11:04 AM

hey Rooftop :wave:

SZ is a very nice strain .
We all feed & water too much at first, let them dry out a bit between watering.
My plants never grow fast in veg like Sannies videos, I need 3 or 4 weeks to get to 12" or15", where I want them.
I recommend super cropping to keep them low.

Posted Image
BaRnY

#5 RooftopStoner

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 07:23 AM

Soo, people! Sorry for keeping you waiting. Everything took longer than expected... but now I'm starting!

I successfully germinated 8/8 seeds, stuck them in Eazy Plugs on 5.9.16 and selected the 6 best-rooted this morning (10.9.16) and planted them into the 3.5L pots along with 800ml of pH 6.5 water and 3ml/L of BIOBIZZ Root Juice. They are now under my 150W Hans Panel enjoying 18 hrs of light. So far so good.

I had the babies in an incubator that I kept around 25ºC and high humidity (70-100%). I was stupid enough to let the incubator in direct sunlight and when I came back 3 hrs later the temperature was at 46°C!!! I'm a bad parent.. Fortunately the ladies did not carry away any evident injuries and I'm sure they'll forgive me once the start putting on height.

Here are some pictures. There's not too much to see yet but I like reports with lots of pictures so I'll try and fill this one up as good as I can.

Peace

Posted Image
Posted Image
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#6 RooftopStoner

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 09:54 AM

View PostDamar, on 19 August 2016 - 12:00 AM, said:

But you've got fems... if you're worried about re-potting when they're already in flower, why don't you just repot before they flower?
Thanks for the kind words! I want to leave them in the little pots long enough for them to root completely.

View Postagreenpassion, on 19 August 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

Topping for 4 or 8 or more mains is a common practice.
Thank you too for your input! When is a good time to start topping? Once they have 3 pairs of leaves? Thats what I read. I'm not sure which method I'll use or if I'll train them at all. I think I'll top them 1-2x and get rid of the lower branches (popcorn) if I chose to do something. Opinions?

View Postagreenpassion, on 19 August 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

But I am wondering...Do you also have an intake fan for fresh air and so that the 420 m³/hr exhaust fan doesn't implode the tent? What about an occilating fan to keep air movement through the plants?
No intake fan but I have airholes on either side. I have a dimmer for my fan so I can adjust the speed according to the temperature.The tent implodes a little. Is that bad?

View Postbarney, on 19 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I recommend super cropping to keep them low.
Thanks for your advice. Nice picture - it looks professional ;) But I wonder if the leaves dont cast too much of a shadow on the ones beneath?

I feel that I'm in the clear about everything except for one point:
If I decide to train the plants do I veg longer than I would if I just let them grow? I will probably top if I do anything. Maybe supercrop 1 or 2 just to get some experience.
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#7 RooftopStoner

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 09:18 AM

UPDATE VEG DAY 8

Things are going quite well. The temperature is quite steady between 22.5ºC and 28.5ºC. Humidity is between 49% and 62%. Everything within range. I have only watered at the very beginning when I planted the Eazy Plugs into the 3.5L pots. There's a slight gap forming between soil and pot but the pot is still quite heavy so I'll wait another 2-3 days. Should I use more of the Root Juice? According to BIOBIZZ one should use it only in the first vegging week but there are no roots peeking from the bottom yet. I would greatly appreciate advice!

Side view:
https://www.opengrow...amily-v7-side/]Posted Image[/URL]

I'm quite happy with the growth except for one plant:
https://www.opengrow...unt-side-view/]Posted Image[/URL]
https://www.opengrow...runt-top-view/]Posted Image[/URL]

She's really small compared to the rest, has strange colouring and the leaves are hanging. I'll give her some time to take care of herself but if she's a runt I'll get rid of her before she takes away light from the other ones.

Also nearly every plants has a wavy set of first leaves. The ones with only one finger. Can you see it? What's up with that?
https://www.opengrow...857-wavy-leaf/]Posted Image[/URL]

The plants are around 10cm tall and are growing to the sides instead of up. That's perfect since I'm limited in height.

That's it for the weekly update. See you next Saturday with new pictures ;)

Here's a view from above of the whole family.
https://www.opengrow...ily-day-7-veg/]Posted Image[/URL]
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#8 saxo

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 10:10 AM

nice! good luck with your run


greets saxo


#9 RooftopStoner

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 10:45 AM

Hello OG'ers! I need some help!!

This morning it was time to water the plants. I used water that aired for 2 days, adjusted pH to 6.5 and poured 250ml into every pot. I kept repeating this and after the 3rd round drain started to leave the bottom - I gave the plants another 250ml. 1L in total for each pot. I collected the drain, measured it and it was pH 5.1!!! WTF? How is this possible?? The soil is 6.3 pH and I watered with 6.5 pH. In my eyes it is impossible that the drain had pH 5.1. Can someone explain? Also the plants look kind of weak in my opinion. The tips of the leaves are hanging a little.

I decided to 'flush' with 2L of pH 6.8 and gave each plant another 1L with 0.5ml/L of BIOBIZZ Grow and pH 7.2. The drain in the end was pH 5.8. Still really low but better than 5.1, I guess.

Hopefully the plants will recover and pH rise to a normal level. Has somebody experienced this?
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#10 RooftopStoner

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:42 AM

UPDATE VEG DAY 15

Unfortunately people only read and do not contribute any advice. I wonder why. Nobody can learn from this grow if I screw up and nobody knows why.

In my last post I flushed the plant. I'm not sure if it was the right decision because the leaves are not so firm.

I hooked up my 400 HPS and continue blasting 18/6. The plants grow much quicker.

Here's the top view.
https://www.opengrow...09-topvie-v15/]Posted Image[/URL]

I found this spot. What could it be? Should I worry?
https://www.opengrow.../183208-spots/]Posted Image[/URL]

And the leaves are pretty wavy and wrinkly. Is this due to wrong pH?? Left leaf
https://www.opengrow...210-wavy-leaf/]Posted Image[/URL]

Hopefully somebody will reply. I must say its not so fun if I talk to myself. If I see nobody reacts then I can as well keep my grow to myself. I hoped to receive help in moments that I need it but this way I feel I'm wasting my energy.

Peace
If you have 5 minutes to spare, drop by and check out my current grow: 6 x Shackzilla fem.

#11 Barrie84

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 12:01 PM

Nice plants bro!

Look like they need some cooling down.... do you water enough....maybe some circulation they seems a litlle burned....

Dont feed to much in this stage keep it al to the minimall and i mean really to the minimal, seedlings dont need much nutrients in this stage!! Almost nothing there`s enough in your soil for 5/6 weeks i only use bacterian the first weeks

Hold them on water for atleast a week.....i think the biggest prob is your feeding at the moment....

Grtzzz,
Barrie
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#12 madmaster420

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 12:02 PM

What's up RooftopStoner!

:wave:

I think the reason why no one is saying anything is because your plants actually look pretty good. You were already given some great advice and even a picture tutorial from one very nice member.

Jus sit back and don't worry too much about the runoff...they are getting bigger now so they will be drinking more. Just keep giving them the nutes when the pots dry out.

DO NOT OVERWATER

DO NOT FUSS OVER THEM TOO MUCH

You will be pleasantly surprised when they are done. Go outside and get some fresh air and have some fun to take your mind off the grow...most growers will tell you that the hardest part is the waiting.

I think they look fine if that means anything
FUCK CANCER...

Save the drama fo yo mama!

#13 BalzaSteel

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 12:39 PM

Yeah, MM420 said it all, tiny bit of heat stress, otherwise they look fine.

not sure if those last pics were taken under your "Metal Halide" but if so that's a high pressure sodium, my plants didn't much like HPS in veg.

Patience young Jedi.

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#14 Hempyfan

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:48 PM

I do not know how I missed this one. I have not actually red much of the thread as I caught this on the way out but I will give it a quick read and give some input. Might not be worth much but I will give it a good look.

Please do not let our low attentions be an issue. I generally just come here to help with grow issues and I do not do much browsing as I used to so it is easy for me to miss good threads these days. This will be true for many people, especially as we creep closer to those who will be harvesting now or soon.

I did look at your pics, you have some environment issue, humidity. Raise it to around 70-75% Put a clear plastic cover over the top of the plant or put some plastic cover over the media. This will help with your root growth.

Your plants are not breathing/transpiring well. Notice how your leaf edges are slightly tacoing or canoeing a bit. Lower temps and raise humidity a bit. It also might be a bit strong on the nitrogen. See how the leaves look like shark teeth. I would not give any nutrient next watering.

They do not need max light right now and HPS will slow the growth in veg a bit. I would add the LED with the HPS for better spectrum and drop off LED in flower. LED veg light correct?

Since it looks like nitrogen might a bit of an issue, I would not flush but ensure to add some amino acids (fish emulsion and kelp or use straight up amino acids) and some calcium. A bit of silica is ideal as well. What happens when we push nitrogen and do not have the "uptake" of calcium to match you will actually grow a plant that most here will praise but to me and insects and molds/fungus we know different. You will end up with stretchy and thin cell walls but to most they will see a green slightly stretchy to stretchy plant and think nothing of it other than it looks good because its green color.

When are you transplanting? Also what is your nutrition for the grow? I also would no worry about that spot. Probably some water or something. My best advice is to continue observing and learning. Do not be quick to act when you do not know. It is best to maybe wait a bit longer to find your answer and to act quickly.

I see nothing in your grow of concern. Just raise the light a bit, increase humidity and watch EC. Do not worry about PH so much. I am big on testing PH but in soils it is hardly ever PH without something else causing the problem. In fact, I cannot think of one time soil PH issues all things competent. Oh, yea. Please no more flushing.

in general order of importance.
  • Light, Specifically, learn about light intensity and spectrum and how and when the plants use light.
  • Environment (your issue), specifically temperature and humidity and the effect on the plant at various times of its growth.
  • Plant management (your issue), specifically learn about growing roots.
  • Genetics
  • Nutrition (your issue), specifically learn about what and when to feed for growing roots, transition and when to give flower nutrients.
If you have any questions or want some input please feel free to pm me. I try to make it around here once or twice a day.

Hope that helped, let me know your nutritional plan and I will give my take on it and any other questions you have. If I dont answer in a day you might want to pm me as I did not see it.
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#15 RooftopStoner

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 05:12 AM

Hello People!

Sorry, my last post got off a little too emotional :)

Thanks for the comments and replies. That's exactly what I needed. I greatly appreciate you guys taking the time and giving me input!!

I was planning to keep the LED for Veg but an experienced friend suggested I use the HPS as it has more power and worked for him every time. Do you think I should switch back to LED again or just keep the HPS now that I already hooked it up? (The LED has Veg and Flower settings)

Heat and humidity are definitely the issue. I didn't know they are so crucial. I thought it was more of a fine-tuning. Temperature rose up to 29 Celsius and humidity is only around 40%.

About the plastic cover: can I put a plastic bag over the entire plant? Wouldn't they suffocate or get too hot? I'm looking to buy a humidifier.

About the nutrients: The journey began in Eazy Plugs, after 5 days I planted the Plugs into BIOBIZZ Light Mix and soaked the soil using pH 6.5 water with BB Root Juice – no additional nutrients. After 10 days the soil was dry enough to water again but minimal roots showed. This is where I pH-tested the drain and decided to flush :( I plan to not give any vegging nutrients and add BB Bloom 5-6 weeks after I moved to bigger pots with BB All-Mix.

Hempyfan, you talk about adding nutrients separately (calcium for example) but I only know of compund fertilizers. Can you suggest a nutrient-line that lets me feed nutes separately? Your post really shed light on this whole thing. Thanks for that! It really helped me out. Also thank you for offering answering questions via PM!

Peace
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#16 Papalag

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 06:23 AM

Hay rooftop
Just saw this thread
Thanks for posting the girls look great
I used hps for veg and flowing I had great results
I did switch to led and now only use led due to heat issues
Seems to me I get the great guiltily and my scrog net fills up with some dank shit
Nice clean setup try earth juice line I started using it the past 2 grows I see nice result
Just remember less is better
Keep it green and safe
Shackzilla is scheduled for my next grow so I will pull up a chair and follow the show
Keep it green
Papalag

#17 agreenpassion

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 07:16 AM

View PostRooftopStoner, on 10 September 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:


Thank you too for your input! When is a good time to start topping? Once they have 3 pairs of leaves? Thats what I read. I'm not sure which method I'll use or if I'll train them at all. I think I'll top them 1-2x and get rid of the lower branches (popcorn) if I chose to do something. Opinions?

No intake fan but I have airholes on either side. I have a dimmer for my fan so I can adjust the speed according to the temperature.The tent implodes a little. Is that bad?

Thanks for your advice. Nice picture - it looks professional ;) But I wonder if the leaves dont cast too much of a shadow on the ones beneath?

I feel that I'm in the clear about everything except for one point:
If I decide to train the plants do I veg longer than I would if I just let them grow? I will probably top if I do anything. Maybe supercrop 1 or 2 just to get some experience.

Hey RooftopStoner.

I wasn't tryin' to ignore ya bud. I haven't been here as much lately tbo.

Much about when to top or start bending is personal preference or due to a technique being used or to deal with stretch etc.

I've only been SCROGging a bit compared to some here. I usually do more LST bending techs. with stem crackin' to slow them sometimes. Or tie-offs and yo-yo's or support screen.

You can prune them down to 4 main lower branches or more depending on what ur looking to do.

Hackin' em down to 4 sides (for me) seems to work best from clones as opposed to seedlings. With a seedling there may be a point at which the plant is "determining" it's sex. For me I try not to jack with them much during that time.

3 Sugar Punch seedlings I topped with 8 remaining branches each (I think) after they showed pistils. I have SCROGGed by nice bending and LST a few times horizontally. But the plants push the fencing...

There are a lot of cool techniques u can use to manage you're space, environment and plants.

Having a slight vacuum on a tent is good. Passive intake can work fine as long as you can keep the temp and RH stable and appropriate.

Plants do need a fresh air exchange. Replenish CO2, evacuate used air and humidity from transpiration and etc.

A slight leaf movement from a lil wind is helpful too. But may not be necessary if you have a good air exchange factor with appropriate temp. and humidity.

Again, I don't generally top seedlings until they show preflowers. Take it as a learning experience. We all fuck up and some learn better from mistakes.

Shackzilla, in that tent I'd likely just get them to 7 or 8 nodes and flip.

Haven't done bottled nutes much in quite a while. Other guys like HempyFan would have to answer u there. :)

thanks
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#18 RooftopStoner

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 09:24 AM

Hey Papalag, I checked out Earth Juice but we don't have that here in Central Europe

agreenpassion, thanks a bunch for clarifying. I think I'll let the plants grow until they're big enough for flower and then I'll top some to get them all to a similar height.

Here are some new pictures. As you can see the little plant grew a lot although it has really wrinkly leaves. Now I know it's due to overwatering, heat stress and low humidity.

Posted Image

I realized I've only posted pictures under LED and HPS light so here's a picture of a plant under natural daylight.

Top View:
Posted Image

Here, in side view, you can clearly see the drooping leaves. This is from overwatering, right?
Posted Image

How is the colour?

Also on a side note, what are good books on growing? I've read Jorge Cervantes but it feels like he's only covering the basics. I'd like to know exactly in which stage the plant needs which nutrients, how much of them, which light, which water, how much, etc.

Once again, thanks for the amazing input and if you feel like saying something, shoot away. Any comment is appreciated :)

Peace
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#19 RooftopStoner

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 03:30 AM

About the pH-mystery from post #9: I had the epiphany in this night's dream. Seriously, I dreamt about my plants and the time I first planted them into pots. I made the mistake of first adjusting pH to 6.5 and then adding Root Juice not checking pH before giving to the plants.

Note-to-self: first add everything to feeding-solution, then adjust pH accordingly.
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#20 Hempyfan

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 03:52 AM

I would raise your HPS light. It is not good to keep messing with the spectrums so lets leave it with HPS unless someone else has input to consider.

It would of been better to not start the HPS until the plants were established and happy. I would of kept the led for the veg spectrum as well. HPS is great intensity but lousy spectrum. With that said, all things competent, I like HPS best but I also like LED for heat aspects. Look at lights as a tool.

People think that pushing the plant is the way to quality plants, their is some semi truth to this but not in this specific case. I would not add HPS to veg until the plants can use that light intensity. They are about that but I would determine by what light gives you the better environment for veg. That is your best answer. It is not uncommon for me to help people who have 1k lights so high they are basically 600 to 400w lights because they cannot handle temperature. Think environment, if you can effectively adjust your environment than no biggie.

Do not top or do anything until they get healthy. Do not add stress upon stress. Oh do not put a bag over the plants, that was not what I meant. A plastic screen suspended over top of the plant will increase the humidity around the leaves which is beneficial in veg. Your HPS is hotter and this should affect your humidity compared to your LED light depending on your temperature. Make sure you have good humidity for veg.

They should bounce back real soon if not already in process.

Your nutrients are fine.
in fact, I would not give anything else until the plant gets out of wet feet. Then I would just give some water and the bio grow at 1ml per liter and adjust from their. It seems in reading the biobizz grow is more about soil microbes so this is good. More is not better.

You will use very little nutrients with good soils. When you transplant make sure you prepare you soil accordingly. Your soil is best prepped 36 hours in advance, (I looked it up, I have no experience with it).

When the plants are dry, I would transplant, give your root juice and acti vera (acti vera give now and each watering until plant gets happy, then again before, during and after flip. Do not concern about PH. The biolife in your soil that you prepped will ensure all is well. You will hurt by altering PH.
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