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Mother plants ("mums") in hydro

mum mother hydro

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#1 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:14 AM

Hi, i think about move my mother plants to hydro. ( please skip those comments : backup in soil )


last time a took some cuttings from my aeroponic system (General hydroponic´s Rainforest + 3 part fertilizer), but i had problem because those cuttings were hollow (hole in stem). Its a big big problem for many reasons. you can imagine.

i have some reasons in my mind,

a ) too fast grow (plants were like 3 weeks old from seed, 40 cm so . like 3-4rd floor)
b ) missing some nutrients in hydro which caused this problem.?!?
c ) maybe plant not from seed but from cutting can help?

so now i am scared to put genetic in dwc or aero.

any experiences or some ideas ?

Thanks

#2 baggybahn

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:21 AM

Ive cloned from dwc. If its hollow it will still work. Mine had no issues being without pith. They actually rooted very quickly. Not sure if this helps. It should become dense over time. Mine did. Just has to build up or catch up rather. Hope you figure this question out. Interesting topic.
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#3 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:46 AM

hi,thank you for your 2 cents elwin.

hollow stem problems:
a ) root ratio of cuttings drop from 99,9% to 40% or less
b ) plants start to rot around those places where you take cuttings. never ever experince that problem on normal mother plants with full stems.

#4 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:51 AM

i think that this problem is caused to some nutrient deficiency, i used just basic nutrients, no additives. but have no idea what i should add.

#5 Hempyfan

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:08 PM

Regarding the stem, I get this not what most understand regarding this topic.
The pith being hollow or full is not from the media but the overall health of the plant in how it manages its internal carbon.
  • Does not always = to health aspects you can see visibly with the eye.
  • Does not mean it should be full, hole or %.
  • Do not simply look at holes or full pith and look to much into. Later on down the line when one has an environment they can fine tune/manage and you have the knowledge of plant nutrition and plant physiology can that be of benefit. Working on those factors I said is more important and plays the role over all.
  • In the mean time, just work on growing a healthy plant.
Generally, I view the pith as a top end sign of how well a plant is managed nutritionally and environmentally and any stress inducing techniques used.

Ok on topic,
  • Some plants are just a bitch to clone and not much will dramatically change that.
Mother nutrition. We want the plant to have two things at the time of the cut.
  • Do not treat like a vegetative state, you will build up to much nitrogen in the leaves thinking this way.
  • Do, feed a balanced NPK and give a flowering nutrient 3 days prior to taking clones. This gives the plant energy needed for building roots instead of growth. The P and K more than the N in this situation. Ensure proper calcium and magnesium levels are correct along with macro nutrients correct.
  • In dirt, a 1/2 handful of worm castings, a handful of fruit bat guano (flowering type) and some compost mixed together once a month and then adjust as needed for your situation, perhaps feed again sooner or later or its just right.
Taking clones - We want to work for less growth hormone in the clone. This is achieved two ways.
  • Take clones from bottom of plant as the top of the plant has more of the growth hormones so the plant will grow up faster.
  • Very even canopy with a one or two taller tops of a bushy mother (This spreads out the hormones and the growth hormone will be more concentrated at the few taller tops. (In short, I like to make bushy then let one to a few tops grow bigger (left untopped) so they collect the higher growth hormones.)
If you utilize natural farming you can create a special FPJ (Fermented plant juice) designed for rooting, but that is for another day.

My take on your situation:
  • Generally I would your issue is a nutritional seconded by perhaps a bit of environmental regarding the mother plant but I can only speculate. Generally nutrition and environment can affect each other.
  • If the stem is rotting in your clone I would get sharper cutting tool as it might of crushed the stem. You also could of gotten an air bubble. Check your water temperature of cloner if applicable.
I would put clones in a cup of water for a few minutes to a bit as I cut the clones and then transfer them into another cup of water with myco added to sit until they would go into an aero cloner or traditional cloner. I normally did not use rooting hormones.
I say Jah Bless. I say this I ask for blessing in all that I do and blessing to all those who take time to read me. If it causes a person issue, understand my meaning and I wish you well under whatever view or belief. To be simply happy and Joy in your heart is all I hope and mean!

#6 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:28 PM

Hempyfan: those plants were healthy (lets say no signs on leaves)

but what i took from your post:
1) add better nutrients combo ( NPK + focus on macro nutrients)

2) i will wait longer than 3 weeks to take first cuttings (whole plant development process, roots etc.) .

take bottom clones: i love to take just tops of branches because they are superb strong clones .-)

it can be just that one genetic bitch, maybe...
i had couple of clones from my hydro plant and this issue wasn´t there, but the plant was much much older...like 2 months and it was blue cheese with very very slow grow even for hydro.

#7 DesertGrown

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:29 PM

Some drug cannabis plants have solid stems, but the majority are routinely hollow, cannabis hemp has solid stems.

Seed plants have a much more efficient root system than clones do. Seed plants have a taproot and strong lateral roots that hold the plant upright.
Clones grow one layer of lateral roots en masse to support themselves, as they have no taproot.

Some strains have more of the main auxin defense & rooting hormones SA (salicylic acid) and IBA (indolebutyric acid) in them than others. Without these hormones cloning is not possible and the gardener will have to use a cloning solution of some sort (natural or otherwise) to aid in the cutting being able to grow roots.

Cuttings taken from plants may be rooted whether the stem is hollow or not.
The roots grow out from the internodes and the plants' epidermis (skin) of the stem... this is where the natural auxins are found.

The core of the plant has nothing to do with rooting... the core is where the plants structural strength is found.

To answer your questions...
A. Hollow stems are not the cause of rapid growth and rapid growth does not cause hollow stems.
B. Hollow stems are not created by an abundance of nutrients or a lack thereof.
C. This question was previously answered above.

I hope some of this information helps you out in some way.

Keep it green!
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#8 Hamme Hydro

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:51 PM

I have my mothers on rock-wool starter blocks and it works like a charm. Instead of one mother per strain i keep several a bit smaller ones.

#9 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 01:59 PM

looks like you guys are unified :D

Hamme Hydro: can you please post image of mothers (plants, setup etc, just to make this thread more interesting) ? how you treat them and some shot of cutting. you never experienced hollow stem in hydro for mothers?


DesertGrown:
well, i never experience hollow stem so much ( 1 genetic from 20 in past ) , but we made selection from regular seeds and mostly soil medium for mothers
(with grow even +-2cm per night,not bad for soil, humidity was the key)

now i have feminized only mother plants (because seed banks stop to do new popular strains in regular variants), and i experience much bigger ratio of hollow stem even on outdoor plants in soil (now like 50-80% have hollow stem).

cuttings, lets say we had 500+ cuttings with 99.9 - 100% ratio , and yes, we use clonex1(btw use powder not gel) for soft wood plants. so we can say that other factors are not in game of this problem (temperature,humidity,cloning technique .-)

next year we had plants in hydro and hollow stem was on i think almost every plant (2 different genetics)

and the ratio of cloning drop from 100% to ~ 50-60%. so i think ,based on this experience! that hollow stem is problem with cloning.
i dont say you cant, but its not superb easy (like if you have regular full stem). if you have dropout ratio 3-4 plants from 10 peaces.
and secondary, but its more destructive was rot (diying peace of stem) on mother plants on places where the hollow stem was,, bucause then there is a big hole to the stem of the plant.

just to make this thread educative more, we use EC 1,0ms ,because we experience faster grow. With EC 1,4+ms you have dark green leaves but slower grow.

#10 Hamme Hydro

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:10 PM

Sure Deviatio. This is a picture of my mothers and daughters closet.

Posted Image

The plants on the bigger blocks i use as mothers and sometimes as clones too if i have too many. And i never experience any trouble with hollow stems. I haven't used dirt in a long time and the plants don't seem to miss it.

#11 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:59 PM

ok, my crappy picture from mobile phone camera.
coco + air pots , selection: Barneys farm: LSD, Cookie Kush + bonuses: Peyote Cookie, Ayahuasca purple,Pineapple chunk, G13 Haze, Liberty Haze , Blue cheese.

Air pots 6l + Coco
Uploaded 12 Aug 2017 - 14:57



#12 deviatio

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 03:05 PM

just for laugh:
now i am trying to take small 10-15 cm tall thin seedlings from soil (soil is contaminated with white bugs) , wash the roots and transplant them in to the Coco media to mother room. " DON´T TRY IT AT HOME FOLKS! " i am scared as fuck to take those bugs to mother room.but those seeds was a gift and i do not want to throw them away. So i am fighting for them !
( Blue Hash - Dinafem , Bubba Kush - Green house seeds, White widow- Nirvana)

i dont have big expectations from them, but it was a gift so give them a try. maybe they will surprise us at all. jet , they grow as they should.

#13 deviatio

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 06:31 AM

View Postdeviatio, on 12 August 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

just for laugh:
now i am trying to take small 10-15 cm tall thin seedlings from soil (soil is contaminated with white bugs) , wash the roots and transplant them in to the Coco media to mother room. " DON´T TRY IT AT HOME FOLKS! " i am scared as fuck to take those bugs to mother room.but those seeds was a gift and i do not want to throw them away. So i am fighting for them !
( Blue Hash - Dinafem , Bubba Kush - Green house seeds, White widow- Nirvana)

i dont have big expectations from them, but it was a gift so give them a try. maybe they will surprise us at all. jet , they grow as they should.

fuh, it was done and they are ok. so it is possible (transfer from soil to coco , 3weeks old plants.)

#14 hidronesia

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 07:38 AM

@Devatio

I really try to help for u.. im long time on hidro... but I dont understand ur problem
for me not clear u speak about cloning or keeping mums in areo like ur title says
when u open a topic like this... DONT FORGET 1 PIC is more than 1000 WORDS
make a pic from the mum, cuts, rooting by days 5, 10, 14

FIRST

3 weeks old plant we never call MOTHER!!! cloning her makes stressed offspring with 3 or less fingers on the leaves

hollow stem can cause rooting problems? Yes... slower rooting or simply rot the stem.. but not necessary if u work with clean sharp tools..and the environment is ideal... to handle this risk,dont use an untopped plant top for taking a cut:)
aerophonic system makes too fast growing? NO.... stretched stem is feeding problem: too much N (if not in genetic.. like amnesia)

BUT TELL U MY OPINION... u are on a totally wrong way with aero and mums hahha if u want to keep a genetic for years that not gona work.
keeping in rockwool like hamehydro works...BUT U GROW ON COCO in AIRPOTS..dont U?... that is best for mums!!!
for clones RW or sponges
https://www.opengrow...8_5379_8534.jpg

hope u hear my helping voice hahah

hidro

#15 hidronesia

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

if u dont need more than 10-15 clone/strain in every 2 weeks... easiest in small pots in coco or peat... if u dont want them to grow fast u can put them in soil... in a cupboard I can put easily 120 different mum

Posted Image

to solve the hollow stem problem... top the 3 week old plants like this and in max 2 weeks u can take 10 almost same cuts (and cut back N a bit)
Posted Image

#16 baggybahn

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:45 AM

Pretty lil ladies there hidronesia. Thx for sharing them. And yes. They will do absolutely fine from hydroponics. In fact it has many benefits to do so if growing in a home or anywhere needing to stay low key. Bc it will reduce insect infestation. Amd scents. Imo. Unless disturbed. In which case god help us if there isnt a cf. Lol.
This has been an enlightening topic. In many ways.
Wakka wakka.

#17 deviatio

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 10:16 AM

hidronesia:
let me share some story first
yes, we are now growing our mothers in coco + airpots. superb combination of grow/mobility of mothers!
hand watering because hands will never fail... nutrients go back to the reservoir.

but i want to automate little bit, rise to maximum production on 1sq meter and i love simplicity ! so drip system is not an option. so i want to try EBB & Flow system to water coco + airpot but there is a problem that you need 400+ liters secondary reservoir to water 1sq meter 30 cm high.

so option numero duo is use dwc or aero. 1 reservoir only. long lasting (1-2 weeks) without maintenance.
but last time i had aeroponic grow and i discover problems with hollow stem in that system. so i need to be beware this time of this problem.


somebody say that is nutrition problem, somebody say that it is genetic problem, as you said, i will post pictures of process, but need like month when i can take first cuttings and put them into the hydro...

#18 Hempyfan

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:03 PM

Ebb & Flow is great!

keep in mind,
  • One big reservoir has issues as well. Bigger pain in the ass to drain, clean and refill. I just state for perspective as I have no opinion on what is best as I see it subjective and based on operating location/situation..
  • Maintain good aeration and temps in large reservoir but this is similar to any size but maintaining good aeration and mixing of nutrients and maintaining good temperatures as this can in hot climates be problematic to keep in good balance. I like a water fall effect with larger reservoir as it adds more oxygen. Simply have the hose from the pump in res going out of the res and pouring back into the res for mixing and aeration. Their are many options available.
  • Good cloning comes from a variety of factors as I have spoke on earlier. Start with good mother health, healthy clones from mothers on higher P diet will tend to root better than nitrogen rich clones. Seconded by positive cloning and transplanting conditions.

I think for the most part you seem to understand it well but just had the question with the hollow stem and if this is so you will do well. Topping plants and taking clones is very stressful on a plant.

If a mother is overused to fast and especially if it is too young to be a mother in development as Hidro stated, it could develop hollow stems as it does not have time to replenish its carbon stores and you get hollow clones. However, this does not really mean it wont generally clone or have issues with cloning as I have seen hollow stems root similar to pith stems. The factors all interplay and what is right in one situation could be different for another growers situation in terms of how strong an effect.
  • I state more along the lines of something to think about.
I look forward to hearing of your quality clones from happy moms.
I say Jah Bless. I say this I ask for blessing in all that I do and blessing to all those who take time to read me. If it causes a person issue, understand my meaning and I wish you well under whatever view or belief. To be simply happy and Joy in your heart is all I hope and mean!

#19 hidronesia

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:57 PM

@deviato

tell me how much clone u need per week and I will draw u how to make it on 1m2
but to get 100 clone per week u cant let mums alone more than a week!!!

Im a mapito grower.. I flood and drain every 3 rd day 7-9 cm
for a grower always have to deal with pace and power and working hours hahah
so if I were u i would stick for coco and drippers..
U dont need res if u use Dosatron..
http://www.dosatronusa.com/irrigation/
some friends of my use it without problems since ages
for dosatron u need runningwater with equal pressure from the pipeline! (

Im a cheap guy.. so I have other method so let me know how much clone u need/time.. we will find out something for u here with other OGers:)

hidro