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SmokyHH

F4 F5 Strains?

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I do not know my way around, because I hardly care about crossbreeding, but I think F4 and F5 Strains are as stable as I would like them to be, but in the marketplace these days you will rarely find anything like that, because you do not make money from it.

But they do exist and there are plenty of breeders who should own such strains, I think. In Google search you will find little and then unknown Breeder. Or do you know sperm banks offering F4 or F5 strains? There are hardly any Seed banks that have such Strains. Do you definitely need years for .. Of backcross you read more often, I think they are also more stable than most of the Fem F1 are. Would like to grow very stable varieties because usually you only have one of the desired phenos and it must be without selecting synonymous go the odds better than usual ..

 

 

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it's not that easy (anymore) ... we can't just look at the F-generation to be sure how stable something is and for what.


if a line gets selected for the same thing for many generations then it is stable for the traits it was selected for, but
if a variety gets open pollinated for a few generations it is much less stable in terms of phenotypic expression (f.e.)


i have grown f12 lines that were all over the place and had f4's that were completely uniform
like clones ... that means, that almost all lines need a grow as checkup first before evaluation.



... hope my 2 centavos help a bit ;)

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4 hours ago, santero said:

it's not that easy (anymore) ... we can't just look at the F-generation to be sure how stable something is and for what.


if a line gets selected for the same thing for many generations then it is stable for the traits it was selected for, but
if a variety gets open pollinated for a few generations it is much less stable in terms of phenotypic expression (f.e.)


i have grown f12 lines that were all over the place and had f4's that were completely uniform
like clones ... that means, that almost all lines need a grow as checkup first before evaluation.



... hope my 2 centavos help a bit ;)

I care about the phenotypes and their characteristics.  I would like to have from 5 seeds not only 1 of them. 

I believe most breeders do not have really stable strains.

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not sure if you understood what i wrote (?) ... i meant that just an "f4" in the title does not mean the

phenotypic expressions will be uniform, it still depends if (or for what) the lines have been selected for.

that's all ... i hope you have great fun finding fast what you desire ... enjoy your smokes, mate :)

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On 10/30/2019 at 12:48 AM, santero said:

not sure if you understood what i wrote (?) ... i meant that just an "f4" in the title does not mean the

phenotypic expressions will be uniform, it still depends if (or for what) the lines have been selected for.

that's all ... i hope you have great fun finding fast what you desire ... enjoy your smokes, mate :)

I do not buy a strain just because there stand f4.  I do not care what he was selected for.  If it is offered and described as stable, I assume.  

I'm just a consumer, normally the breeder should be able to give information about the phenotypes.  Most varieties are not carefully bred and they are unstable.  There are many bad breeders who just want to make quick money.  

Someone told me look for F4 or F5 Generations they are more stable than F1.  What that means exactly, i dont care about.  I just wanted to know what name is there for stable-bred varieties?  If the breeder says there are 2, 3 or 4 Phenos out and can describe their properties, that's good, if it is so.  Some varieties have a larger Gene pool than others is clear. 

You mean F4 Strains can have many Phenotypes too right? I thought that it means that F4 generations are pretty stable and you get the specific phenotypes more often, more often than at F1..

For example, I would never buy a variety without Information about the Phenotypes and their Characteristics. Because I only need 5 seeds every 3 Mounth. Therefore its nice if the Breeder can give indications and they agree.

 

Excuse me my englisch isnt perfect.. for some Words i use translation

 

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i understand why you ask. real breeders are rare these days. it makes no sense to waste time, space, money on stuff

that might go in any way, especially in situations like yours. basically it is true what was said to you, but sometimes

high f-gen lines were not made by breeders, made in private ... but those do not get into commercial circulation (as in:

sold), so i have to admit i was just babbling about the lines in general (genetical aspect) and overlooked the "buying

stable beans element" of your reason to post. i'll recommend the same. check for high f-generations and also IBLs ;)

 

 

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In your situation I would think that you might be better off looking at feminized seed, they are as stable as anything else out there today and you can still see a few different expressions to choose from, quality will be consistent across the variations. Like anything else you buy from the right breeders that are known for stable strains.

Going to F4,5,6,7,8,9 and on doesn't men your going to get a stable strain, it can fall apart at f4 or even F5 and you have to start over,  it depends on their selections and what they selected for. It's complicated. Personally I prefer BX's of something that is to be preserved, otherwise I like to search.

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One reason is that you see fewer worked lines is that their are so many seed offerings and people for the most part tend to go with the most marketed and talked about names so working a line far into the F lines might not be as profitable as kicking out a bunch of F1 with the latest popular strains.  I call them flash breeders.

Craftsman Breeders work the lines.  They care about their work and not so much work for flash in the pan sales though they do keep with bringing out new genetics.

In the end, you look at strain, look at the breeding.  If you can find out the parents and possibly the phenotype of the parent.  Not always able to be found but the more information the better.  Select a strain like you are selecting a house.  Research and check it out and make an informed decision.  You will rarely be disappointed if you do that.

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Thank you Guys for the Info.. I believe in the private sector you will find the most stable Genetics but unfortunately I do not know anyone.  I am actually satisfied, but sometimes I have some phenotypes too standard.  And selecting moms does not help, I like the variety.  it is enough to buy from good  breeder..

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The "F" in F1 stands for "filial", put simply, that means that particular plant is the first generation offspring of the two parental (P) plants that were bred together.

The parental plants may also be known as P0 or F0 in horticulture... denoting that they are the parental generation. 

F1 is the direct hybrid offspring from the parent plants. F1 is where you'll see the greatest diversity of phenotypic expressions. An F1 is neither a pure line nor stable, as they contain the genes (dominant & recessive ) of both parents.

F2 is the result of crossing two F1 plants together. F2 is where you'll find the greatest diversity of smells/flavors and plants that exhibit more vigor.

Subsequent F generations are made to refine the strain further. Each filial level gained refines the dominant phenotypic expressions that may be found in the cross.

If stability is what your after, then look for plants that have been backcrossed (Bx) or plants that have been inbred (IBL) over a number of generations.

Good luck to you in your search for plant stability.

 

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2 minutes ago, DesertGrown said:

The "F" in F1 stands for "filial", put simply, that means that particular plant is the first generation offspring of the two parental (P) plants that were bred together.

The parental plants may also be known as P0 or F0 in horticulture... denoting that they are the parental generation. 

F1 is the direct hybrid offspring from the parent plants. F1 is where you'll see the greatest diversity of phenotypic expressions. An F1 is neither a pure line nor stable, as they contain the genes (dominant & recessive ) of both parents.

F2 is the result of crossing two F1 plants together. F2 is where you'll find the greatest diversity of smells/flavors and plants that exhibit more vigor.

Subsequent F generations are made to refine the strain further. Each filial level gained refines the dominant phenotypic expressions that may be found in the cross.

If stability is what your after, then look for plants that have been backcrossed (Bx) or plants that have been inbred (IBL) over a number of generations.

Good luck to you in your search for plant stability.

 

This is the first time I have seen such a well written description. TY sir, I can even understand this. :)

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Thank you gardenartus, I appreciate that very much!

Plant genetics and filial generations are confusing to many people, so I thought I'd jot something down that may be understood better for everyone here.

I'm not a know-it-all, but I do know a whole lot about plants and I like to share the knowledge of plants that I have gained over the years with people where I can.

 

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just to chime in to the above. If both Parents being bred are IBL's and stable You will get offspring that are more uniform in nature. instead of me trying to say it in my own words further i'll cut and paste from sensi seeds website.  btw i realize this might be more than the OP asked for but feel it will give him and some others a more complete picture based on the posts by Santereo and DesertGrown clear info is the best info. thx guys 

Cannabis Genetics 101: Stabilising A Strain

Stabilising cannabisProcedures to stabilise cannabis strains are poorly understood, even by breeders producing commercial strains. Stability refers to the variability and predictability found in the offspring of a parent generation: when a strain is unstable, variability will be high and predictability low; with a stable strain, the reverse is true.

 

Variability & predictability

Variability in this case refers to the range of different phenotypes that will express when hybridising two different strains; predictability refers to the expected distribution ratio of the different phenotypes. When crossing stable parents, Mendelian inheritance dictates that: 50% of the offspring will resemble both parents equally, 25% will express traits closer to the mother and 25% closer to the father.

Usually, breeders will stabilise a strain over several generations. First, a healthy mother and father are selected, and bred to produce hybrid offspring that will be of varying predictability depending on parent stability. Hence, if the mother and father are both considered stable, their offspring would be expected to express three phenotypes as outlined above.

Stable vs. true-breeding

It is important to note that ‘stable’ does not equate to ‘true-breeding’. A true-breeding strain is one that will produce consistent offspring of one dominant phenotype (with few to no specimens unlike their siblings);  in cannabis, these are usually found among the landraces and traditional cultivars. Further, breeders may use the term true-breeding to refer to single traits that will always recur (such as purpling or webbed leaves), rather than for overall phenotypic expression.

Mendelian inheritance at its most simple - 25% of offspring have the type AA, 25% are aa and 50% are Aa Mendelian inheritance at its most simple – 25% of offspring have the type AA, 25% are aa and 50% are Aa

Stable parents usually produce predictable, homozygous offspring, although with a greater degree of variation than found in true-breeding strains. However, if one or more parents is unstable, crossing them together results in a range of heterozygous offspring that can express any number of unpredictable traits, and which will not correspond to predictable Mendelian ratios.

The traits that are dominant in each parent are recombined to provide the genetic basis for the next generation. The initial crossing of two unrelated parents is known as the filial-1 (f1) hybrid. Usually, the best examples of the f1 hybrids will be crossed to produce the f2 generation, which is usually even more unstable than the f1.

Crossing & back-crossing

With several generations of crossing together brothers and sisters from the same parents—selecting on the basis of desirable traits—a greater degree of consistency and therefore predictability can be achieved. Desired traits become dominant and will always appear, while undesirable traits are gradually eliminated from the gene pool and are no longer expressed.

For some traits, back-crossing plants to previous generations allows traits to become stabilised more quickly. Many breeders erroneously believe that some degree of back-crossing is necessary to stabilise any strain, but in reality this technique is only required for certain characteristics.

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It really does take quite a bit of time, and a good eye, to further filial lines to IBL status. If you made 3 filial generations per year, it would still take you a few years to accomplish this task. And, keep in mind that an IBL is not a totally stable line, but it's about as stable as you're gonna get in a cannabis plant.

From my experience, IBL's can give the grower a few phenos that are close to uniform,  but still express themselves a little differently due to the dominant traits that were picked to further the strain. I've grown IBL's that were upwards of F16 and still saw phenotypic expressions that were not totally uniform, but close to it.

When growing out F1's we use our eyes to see the differences in phenotypes, and in doing so, we can distinguish maybe 6 to 10 different phenotypes. On a scientific level, there may be more than 90 different, distinguishable, phenotypes that may be found in a simple F1 cross.

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@DesertGrownthe ability to have diffrences even small ones in an ibl is to me very desirable and gives us better options. that's why the idea of just 2/3 phenos as dominant and the norm for a hack is the route i'll be going when time comes

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On 11/12/2019 at 1:26 AM, DesertGrown said:

F1 is where you'll see the greatest diversity of phenotypic expressions. An F1 is neither a pure line nor stable, as they contain the genes (dominant & recessive ) of both parents.

F2 is the result of crossing two F1 plants together. F2 is where you'll find the greatest diversity of smells/flavors and plants that exhibit more vigor.

 

If both P-plants are homozygous, the F1's will be very uniform.

And F1's exhibit the most vigor. They benefit from the "hybrid vigor effect".

That's what makes F1's so popular in agriculture.

You will see the greatest diversity in the f2's.

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Greeting
What do you think about this. I would love to play with breeding a bit, but I have no conditions. So I made a "plan" for how to do it anyway. Please let me know if there is something fundamentally wrong with it.

Select an Ouzbekistan male plant. Choose  for vigor, grow patern ... Pollinate the selected Sannies Jack(or something else) female.
From F1 leave only female plants, clone them. Choose one by quality and do backcrossing on P Ouzbeki male. Leave only females from the next generation, make early selection according to desired characteristics (Ouzbeki grow patern). From them choose the one with better sativa influence in high(and others traits). Do backcrossing on P Ouzbeki. Repeat the process and select.
In the next generation, choose a female again, but this time also leave a males. Try to find one with sativa influence in the high traits.. Separately pollinate the chosen and see what happens in the next generation.
Lastly, crossing the last generation with goal to get a stable variety.
There could be lots of seeds, lots of smoking material and oil in each part of the process. I would have fun. I’m not in a hurry anywhere, nor do I think I’ll make a super variety. I'm growing anyway, and I mean spice it up a bit.

 

Im not native english speaker and i hope that this is understendable

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Might be worth to look at an additional F2 generation in any breeding project, for a more complete overlook of favorable combined traits. You never know what nature can do with a bit of freedom ;) Remember to wait for that special girl that stand high above everything else in the garden, It must be the best plant you have ever encountered, otherwis don't waste your time with genetically similar patterns that sometimes appear in First finials (unless you hit the real deal jackpot) it's in the F2 generation that nature can reveal expressions that are truly unique. Stabilizing the strain is something I don't quite understand, why not keep the cut...?

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if I could make it to the end, the first thing I would do is cross it with some sativa.
Why did I even start thinking about it?
In the area where I live, there are heavy storms in the summer. Later, in the flowering phase, there are strong winds every year. No matter how well I bind the plants there will always be great damage. However, the indices are much better able to handle it.
And I prefer sativas :)
But curiosity and fun are the main motives

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Try surrounding the area with chicken wire fence ,covered with some low thread fabric .

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On 10/26/2019 at 5:40 AM, SmokyHH said:

I do not know my way around, because I hardly care about crossbreeding, but I think F4 and F5 Strains are as stable as I would like them to be, but in the marketplace these days you will rarely find anything like that, because you do not make money from it.

But they do exist and there are plenty of breeders who should own such strains, I think. In Google search you will find little and then unknown Breeder. Or do you know sperm banks offering F4 or F5 strains? There are hardly any Seed banks that have such Strains. Do you definitely need years for .. Of backcross you read more often, I think they are also more stable than most of the Fem F1 are. Would like to grow very stable varieties because usually you only have one of the desired phenos and it must be without selecting synonymous go the odds better than usual ..

 

Yes,

NAW seeds, The Connoisseur Co.

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On 10/27/2019 at 1:40 AM, santero said:

it's not that easy (anymore) ... we can't just look at the F-generation to be sure how stable something is and for what.


if a line gets selected for the same thing for many generations then it is stable for the traits it was selected for, but
if a variety gets open pollinated for a few generations it is much less stable in terms of phenotypic expression (f.e.)


i have grown f12 lines that were all over the place and had f4's that were completely uniform
like clones ... that means, that almost all lines need a grow as checkup first before evaluation.



... hope my 2 centavos help a bit ;)

 

Not sure if you seen anything on Mycotek's GG4 IBL. Perfect example of your first sentiment. I tried asking Mycotek how many generations it was bred and found out that it wasn't an IBL at all as it was a BX7... that mofo took it abs bx'd males to a GG4 clone... 7 times... I tried to approach him with further question but was shut down. So Seattle Chronic and I started talking about out theory on what will come from those beans (Seattle chronic does thc and cbd as well as full spec work, tests males and does crazy stress testing and pops seeds in the 1k plus numbers, a one man show and he works damb hard). Sure as shit, the first grows start coming in and they show 10 plus variations from a pack of seeds. Just goes to show, selection with criteria is key.

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