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Zanzibar

Vic High :: Improved Breeding for Closet Hacks

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RRS Improved Breeding for Closet Hacks
Here is a simple model that can help explain how someone with as little as a 400watt garden and a flo clone bench could pull off an improved breeding project utilizing a derivitive of the RRS concept. This is not a strict blueprint, but just a general model that can be scaled up or down depending on the realities of the seed maker. In this case, I will assume that the clone bench is limited to 30 clones and the flower room limited to 20 flowering plants. Purists will find flaws in the model and and their insight is welcome as it can only add depth. However, I request that any that are not interested in the concept of improved breeding techniques to simple limit their participation to read only status. By all means questions about clarification are welcome, but ignorant attempts to discredit are not. As the starter of this thread, I ask the breeder mod to respect this wish and delete any extra "noise". If this isn't possible because of site policy, I will just remove this post and take it to a more selfish location FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT="

Hope this enlightens some to the possibilities.

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Starting with two unrelated inbred lines, A and B.

1) Grow out the A line and select the top 5 males (Am1-5) and top 5 females (Af1-5) to use later:
a) plant a little over twice the seeds your flower room can handle
b) veg seedlings
c) sex the seedlings
d) select females for flower room and repot into final pots
e) take 4 clones of each of these females
f) flower males and females, may be cramped with the males to start, don't worry
g) just before the males explode, remove, grade, select 5 best.
h) prune these 5 males to remove all flowers and return to veg area
i)harvest females, grade, and identify the top 5
j) keep the best two clones that represents each of the 5 selected females, discard the rest

What you finish with is 15 clones and some sinse to enjoy personally or sell if that is your game. Whatever the route, this step has not cost the grower anything but a bit of space in the flo bench.

2) Grow out the B line and select the top 5 males (Bm) and top 5 females (Bf) to use later: Follow the procedure used in step 1 above.

The net result should be another sinse crop and the flow bench contain 30 clones now.

5 Am clones labelled Am1 - Am5
2 sets of 5-Af clones labelled Af1-Af5
5 Bm clones labelled Bm1 - Bm5
2 sets of 5-Bf clones labelled Bf1-Bf5

3) Making the A and the BA seedlines Take the 5 Am and 1 copy of each of the Bf and Af clones and flower them out (15 total) allowing random pollination. You should end up with 10 seedlots divided into two groups of 5, the A group labelled A1-A5 and the BA group labelled BA1-BA5


4) Making the B and the AB seedlines Take the 5 Bm and 1 copy of each of the Bf and Af clones and flower them out (15 total) allowing random pollination. You should end up with 10 seedlots divided into two groups of 5, the B group labelled B1-B5 and the AB group labelled AB1-AB5.

Be sure to make sure that the end numbers correspond to the same initial female clones. For instance, be sure that AB1 and A1 seedlines are from the same A1 mother. And that the BA1 and B1 seedlines came from the same B1 mother.

The clone bench should be empty now and the breeder should have 5 packs of A seedline, 5 packs of the B seedline, 5 packs of AB seedline and 5 packs of the BA seedline making 20 packs of seed.

5) Grow out and rate the 5 packs of AB seedline. One could do them all at ounce, or divide it up over 6 sinse crops. Nothing wrong with a few sinse crops is there? For this model I will divide the task into the 6 sinse crops.

5a) Grow out as many of the AB1 seeds as your flower room can handle. This usually means planting a little over more than double the number of plants your room can handle and then just selecting the best females for flowering. Make backup clones of each female to be flowered and store them on the flo bench. Now take the number of plants your flowering room can hold (say 20 in this model) and divide this number by 5 and this is the number of keeper plants you want to identify from this crop (say 4). Use a standard score sheet system to score this crop and make notes for future reference if necessary. Identify and select the clones representing these 4 plants and toss the rest. Be sure to label them AB1.

5b-5e) repeat the 5a process for each of the seedlots labelled AB2 to AB5. You have now enjoyed 7 sinse crops and should end up with 20 clones on your clone bench if your flower room can hold 20 plants. There should be 4 of each group, be sure each group is properly labelled from AB1 - AB5.

5f) This is your eighth sinse crop and is where you grow the best of the best of the AB seedline. Randomly arrange these plants in your grow room and then flower them out. Score each plant and use the totals of each group of 4 to score each of the 5 groups. Rank the AB seedlines from best to worst. You can help your decision by referring to the data you also collected in the previous 5 grows. The point is to determine which of the 5 seedlots provided the best OVERALL results, not the best individuals

Your clone bench should be empty again.

6a-6f) repeat the entire process from 5) above, but using the BA1 - BA5 seedlines instead.


7) with reference to steps 5a-5f, use the data data collected to determine your two top A seedlines, lets say that A5 ranked tops and A3 ranked second. This means that you can discard lots A1, A2 and lot A4

7a) Grow out as many plants of the A5 seedbatch as you can and select your top 3 males and top 3 females. Maintain clones of these 6 plants on your clone bench, cleartly labelled as Af1-Af3 and Am1-Am3.

7b) Grow out as many plants of the A3 seedline and select the best 2 males and best 2 females, clearly labelling them Af4-Af5 and Am4-Am5.

Now be sure to have two copies of each Af clone for a total of 15 clones on the clone bench. Sound familiar?

8) Now repeat the processes in step 7 but with using the data collected in step6 to choose the top two B seedlines.

Now you should have 30 clones on your clone bench representing:

5 Am clones labelled Am1 - Am5
2 sets of 5-Af clones labelled Af1-Af5
5 Bm clones labelled Bm1 - Bm5
2 sets of 5-Bf clones labelled Bf1-Bf5


Repeat the process in steps 3) and 4) so that you once again have seedlines labelled at A, B, AB, and BA.

You have finished the first cycle of the breeding program and ready to start a second. It hasn't been quick but you have enjoyed alot of sinse along the way and the combined AB and BA seedlines represent a superior F1 seed product. Each step of RRS will just keep making it better.


Now it's time to post, proof, and go back and edit the mistakes, haha.

figure1.jpg.0bfdea55422fc2240b43fb0bb750877f.jpg

figure2.jpg.ec9514833b521cd13567ba2a666d5b69.jpg

figure3.thumb.jpg.1bc664c2e7e7ba321f7180cc21605727.jpg

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BC Growers Association


you say random pollination ,do you mean to tell me that you would let pollen from all choice five males pollinate the females .by doing this i would think that unless all your males all perfectly identical that you would still wind up with more inconsistancy with what seed you wound up producing ? Dont you think.I would much rather isolate 1 male for each catagorie of females then grow out the results taking clones from which produced best.Just my two cents if i misunderstood you the i appoligise

 

Susy and rotty, thanks for bringing this up. Even though I've already answered this question a couple of times here and there, and get cranky when I keep getting asked to repeat myself, haha, adressing it again here with the model is a good idea. But I'll just start with a repost and then let you OR someone else base future questions on this instead of me starting over FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT="


REPOSTS:

>>>>>>>Which male's pollen am I collecting? How much pollen is coming from each male? If you collect on 1 day or collect over 30 days, you still have no idea what you have collected. Therefore, you never know when it has mixed well, or even what it contains. You're just hoping, and that is bad science.

No it isn't bad science, it's about respecting some of the merrits of natural selection when they don't get in the way. Look again to dogs, the lines where man does the selections are suffering from inbreeding depression. Man has demonstrated that he isn't capable of breeding for fitness over the long haul, especially when controlling the exact nature of each cross. But the mongrel dogs are, generally speaking, healthy and don't share the diseases following the purebreds. Man rarely controls a mongrel cross, nature does. Nature is effective in maintaining fitness. Now in a room of mixed pollen, you must remember all the males are already there because they have been selected by the breeder. Is it such a bad thing to allow nature to have a say in weighting the genepool from amonst these "selected" males? I think not, I feel this is an excellent oportunity to allow nature to do her thing without interferring with our selective process. Remember, she doesn't get to act on all the males, just those we selected as superior.

Plus if you really follow the model, you will see that each pollen pool is being selected for it's combining ability in an indirect fashion. This is what the reciprocol nature of the model accomplished. The females are selected on their ability to produce superior offspring with the pollen pool as a WHOLE. This happens on both sides and therefore with each cycle of the breeding program, more and more indirect selection is imposed on the pollen source while allowing nature to somewhat protect what man is incapable of, fitness or adapatability. (ok, I edited and added to this repost, haha)


AND ANOTHER REPOST, PLEASE IGNORE THE TONE FOR THIS THREAD:

Another area you closet hacks keep clinging to with complete devotion to ignorance is the mixed pollen. You keep claiming that selection has not been ,ade on the pollen source, but if you study my closet hack model, you will see that it is done twice with each generation. First time when choosing your top males. Second time when doing the RRS. The male selection is indirect, but still effectively there with each and every test cross. The pollen is being tested for it's ability to combine with the females. The pollen's role isn't missing, just not as obvious as the female's.

2) If you ever actually decided to open a book and study genetics, you would learn that one does not breed for polygenic low heritable traits such as yield and potency by using the individual plant test cross method. The breeder must select for families of superior plants to ensure a chance of maintaining all the genes that went into making the superior yield, potency, adaptability, or basically overall fitness. This is a fact of life whether you like it or not and I make every advanced genetics book out there ever written as my reference. All you have to do is read one to find this reality.

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BC Growers Association

 

>>>>>>Ok i here what you are saying but i dont agree with random pollen from different males

Agree or don't agree, but I'm basing my position on advanced breeding concepts, not personal "feelings". I have mentioned that this (family selection) is how one breeds for traits like yield, potency, and fitness, are you saying that this academic statement is incorrect? Do you have an academic argument against or just an emotional one? I didn't start this thread to discuss feelings and the other quasi sciences that runs traditional breeding concepts. The concepts of full sib vs half sib breeding methods is well researched and documented. If you can show that full sib breeding WON'T direct a breeding project into the right direction, please by all means share.

Rotty, much of the dog model applies to cannabis, but the improved breeding options available to both is one thing that isn't. You painted a pretty picture of your breeding program and I salute you for wanted to raise the bar in your profession. However, it's also naive. I have seen a stud male become a celebrity on a north american scale and basically own any conformation show it entered. That stud's marketvalue was tops and the owner was able to be extremely picky as to who was allowed access to the stud services. And then when the dog reached about 8 years, it's genetics crumbled and instead of disclosing the problem to the breeding community, the owner quietly had the dog put down. Almost a decade later, seeing that dog's name in a pedigree makes that pedigree more valuable. No matter how hard you THINK you can control you genetics, you can't, and thinking you can is what has gotten many dog breeds like your rottys into the trouble they are.

The dog breeding books can't consider the mixed pollen method because such a technique isn't practical for the dog breeding paradigm. However, before discounting it, you may want to read up a bit on manipulating quantitative or biometric genetics, particularly those with low heritability. Compare the pros/cons of full sib vs half sib breeding programs. One is faster, one is more practical, but both work. Plus, adding this knowledge, even if it isn't directly applicable to the methods available to a dog breeder, will help you better understand your selection choices.


Hibe, I built the model by placing my head into the closet grower's paradigm and trying to create an RRS model based upon the constraints of that paradigm. Obviously such things as lightmovers and more lights would severely influence and improve the model and make it better. I just wanted to create a model that addresses every closet hack's arguments against even trying to try an improved breeding method. Just creating a starting point based on the reality that closet growers ARE going to continue breeding seeds for the market because the market is going to continue buying them. So, which is better, my flawed RRS model, or the closet hack one on one method? Just opening doors with the prototype here. Like yourself, I will let the end users come up with ways to upgrade the model into a "higher performance" one. Definately feel I have done more than enough spoonfeeding so far. FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT="


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the delete pool:


>>>>>>Well Vic I se holes all over your RRS therory. The biggest and most glaring is in not selecting individuals but selecting groups based on yeild. What have flower/grain producers been doing for centuries. Selecting the biggest and best to improve the quality of bloom and the heaviest seed heads.


How do you think field crops and land races were developed? When picking the top seed heads in the field, did they know which males did the pollination? How often do they know when breeding modern field crops? Almost never. I'm not interested in your "beliefs", I'm interested in arguments based upon academic principles. Maybe I'm being overly harsh with you (you can thank toad, memy, joey, etc) but until you can offer some, your participation is not warranted.


>>>>>First and I think most will agree that to grow 20 plants under a 400w, is impossible except in a SOG.


If you don't know how, and I have demonstrated how in the past, this thread isn't for you. Your immature persepective is welcome, leave.


>>>>>>Now you are going to grow and evaluate 4 plants from her, right.

another reason you should be banned from this thread, your reading and comprehension skills are not suitable for the educational level of this thread. Stay out of it until you have finished high school.

Mod please delete toads rubbish or give me the keys to do iut myself.


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BC Growers Association

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... the reason I posted this essay on Improved Closet Hacks - aside from the basic idea that everyone interested in making beans should read it - is because I'm wanting to know who are the breeders out there that are actually doing at least this basic hack breeding in their programs. Does it exist? If so, who's doing it?

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 thx. @Zanzibar pretty sure i had all the stuff from BCGA BUT TONS OF REFERENCE PANT SUFF WAS LOST WITH A YAHOO EMAIL THAT  they wouldn't help me access... ni way to trecover or even know how much shit i lost. flash drives/cd's  are in order for future archives .

while i was on planet ganja one of those dues approached me.  wanting me to run their beans but i didn;t know who they were prior to the request. so it spooked me and i tried to find out who the Monkey dude was.  had he done a sinple into i would have been cool with it but that didn't happen. dud said he had been watching me and thought i'd be down for the pan. not his words as i can't recall.

So, yeah i have always been interested in breeding and it comes from the dog world to be exact. whcih made me realize i needed to looj into other animals and how they were bred. like horse, game cocks =chickens and others. So, once i started dealing with the sacred plant. breeding/ pollen chucking became a natural interest. plus i like creating things that are unique. i saved many articles on breeding and they too need to be archived properly in one place. DJ's stuff, mucho Chimera articles, and others as well. a non commercial breeder  that's a broski on auto flower breeding etc. etc. 

I HAVE LOOKED AT PROFESSOR P = DYNASTY as my chosen template breeder because he was one of the first that listed all the phenos expressions with details in his strain descriptions. the fact that he was successful even though his lines weren't stable/consistent showing only 1 basic pheno like the old skunk no. 1 did made me say. wait a minute i can do that too. of course as the DYNASTY OFFERINGS ADVANCED THEIR LINES WERE WORKED MORE TO reflect more stability for certain chosen strains.   at one time i was going to be doing old school 100 seed selections and that idea has been scraped based on the new wave of chuckers hitting up elites with a chosen male... nothing wrong with that imho though. just saying that's not breeding. it like the dog folks let a male hit a female and call themselves breeders when all they are doing is letting two ducks fuck. no selection and often the mom/dad isn't even worth breeding in the first place. they call a stud dog a dog who hasn't even been bred or proven he makes good offspring lol.  

so based on little time, resources and space i will just slowly work towards stuff i feel is worth growing and keeping around for awhile = at least 3 yrs or more as mothers. with all that said Bud production is my priority as i can't afford the lower prices still of weed lol.  when i can slip in some pollen chucking headed towards breeding i'll post on that.

@Zanzibar i didn't see the version with the diagrams can u link me please. i found the all text version and yeah most definitely had that stowed away before. dude because of you i ran across the bonzai moms articles again which are now booked marked and saved as well. thx. a tom for being the catalyst :grinning_respect:

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Learn plant physiology if you want to breed.  It has all your answers.

A good start.

http://culturalhealingandlife.com.www413.your-server.de/index.php?/forums/forum/33-plant-physiology-and-nutritional-transport/

This is in that post in advanced section but here is link.  It is vital for those who desire knowledge in growing and breeding.

 

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I saw this and think it's appropriate for what I'm pointing at, This is by BeanHorder regarding his version of Blockhead. I found it on HempDepot:

 

Quote

Blockhead F5
This F5 is a very special Blockhead I’ve been working on for some time.  It all started with an open pollination of selected plants grown from original Spice of Life seed stock. I chose the finest 9 females and 9 males from over fifty plants and then open pollinated those 18 to create the Blockhead f2.  I did so to prevent bottlenecking of this spectacular stain.  The original was surprisingly uniform, however there were some examples that were remarkable standouts.  The f2's really opened up the gene pool and again I selected some superb examples and opened pollinated the best of the best. To keep the gene pool as open as I could, examples were chosen from a wide assortment that represented certain desirable traits. I chose a few plants that were simply the most devastatingly potent; a few that by far the largest yielding, some example with outstanding flavor and a few that represented what I consider the classic Blockhead phenotype.

I repeated this selection process and subsequent open pollinations in the f3's and f4's.  The f4’s were becoming quite uniform but still had outstanding vigour.  Growth pattern, flavor and aroma were now similar on all plants.   Differences showed later in flowering in leaf shape and color.  Also my selection bias was starting to show.  The very rare devil horn leaf pheno and the long slender leaf pheno (usually associated with the most trippy, potent buds) were now appearing very often.  Almost all plants were now large yielding single cola and the potency definitely drifted to the head throbbing trippy side.

I then grew out over 250 of the f4’s.  Those grew out very uniformly in vegetation and only started to show their differences in flowering (all except one, see freak sativa pheno).  I chose 6 males based on structure but all with slightly different traits. I then narrowed it down to 24 of the finest females and then open pollinated all of these.  I then tested all pollinated females.  I divided then into 4 selected phenotypes and chose the best two examples of each.

These F5 seeds are only from the very best 8 female plants based on 4 criteria (2 females per selection type).  I’ve been asked by a few to keep these phenos separate in seed form, so they can be purchased separately. It might be more accurate to label these types as “selection criteria” instead of true phenotypes. Whatever… let the internet argue that.

***Please note that by selecting a pheno does not guarantee that the offspring with exhibit all (or any) of traits of the mother phenotype.  It only increases the odds of the pheno expression.  6 different males where used on all mother plants to maintain vigour and avoid bottlenecking.***

All pheno types are fast finishing (7-8 weeks), very potent and have extremely dense buds structure.  The flavor is citrusy but with a piney/fuel/turpentine undertone.  These plants produce absolutely first-rate buddage by any standard.  They are very easy to grow and have a thick, sturdy structure that rarely needs support.

These are all highly recommended.
These f5’s are a limited one-time offering.  I will not be making any more f5’s or f6, f7’s ...

Enjoy,

Beanhoarder

 

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I have eyed dude for quite some time. I don't know him but i frankly don't believe many who post huge numbers to do selections over time to stabilize etc and sell them for cheap. especially with the numbers of strains he/they have. with THAT SAID IT'S PLENTY OF THEIR GEAR I WANT TO TRY and have looked at it too many times for me to recall  = every couple of months when i visit HD lol.

So, yeah @Zanzibarthat's what we are talking about and though it sounds simple it's anything but based on your breeding goals which have to account for so many variables and that's based on whether parents are ibl/true breeding or not etc. etc. I've seen a few cats on ig show big plant numbers to seldct from but like some past so called breeders most who say it aren't doing nothing but lying and making selections from 1-4/5 packs of beans at most. 

i would love to see beanhorders photo journal on the strains they have worked. it's not going to stop me from running some gear at those prices though eventually.

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On 1/19/2020 at 4:10 PM, Sacred Plant Warrior said:

I have eyed dude for quite some time. I don't know him but i frankly don't believe many who post huge numbers to do selections over time to stabilize etc and sell them for cheap. especially with the numbers of strains he/they have. with THAT SAID IT'S PLENTY OF THEIR GEAR I WANT TO TRY and have looked at it too many times for me to recall  = every couple of months when i visit HD lol.

So, yeah @Zanzibarthat's what we are talking about and though it sounds simple it's anything but based on your breeding goals which have to account for so many variables and that's based on whether parents are ibl/true breeding or not etc. etc. I've seen a few cats on ig show big plant numbers to seldct from but like some past so called breeders most who say it aren't doing nothing but lying and making selections from 1-4/5 packs of beans at most. 

i would love to see beanhorders photo journal on the strains they have worked. it's not going to stop me from running some gear at those prices though eventually.

Brads gear has always treated me well and has always been quite true to the descriptions. He's always been more than happy to field questions and has been great to deal with no matter if I'm ordering his Beanhorder gear or any of the other breeders he carries on HD.

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It is pretty much impossible to make a true F1 with any of the genetics available on the market today. 1+1 breeding is stripping out the gene pool. This is the cost of improper breeding.

I found this paper on The Real Seed Co blog ::

Alarmingly, Central and South Asian landraces have been corrupted by the introduction
of foreign germplasm into their centers of diversity. Beisler (2006) boasted of
importing “Mexican Gold” into Afghanistan around 1972. Casano (2005) noted that
Afghani landraces were “disappearing” due to hybridization with other drug-type plants.
Conversely, Central Asian landraces were introduced into South Asian centers of diversity
in the 1970s – into Nepal (Cherniak 1982), Jamaica (Lamb 2010), and Thailand
(Clarke and Merlin 2016). By 1980, Afghani landraces were imported into southern
Kashmir, cultivated for sieved hashīsh, and escapes grew near crop fields (Clarke 1998).
Also in the 1980s, Central Asian genetics were introduced into South Africa (Peterson
2009) and Morocco (Clarke and Merlin 2016). Sharma (1988) wrote about “hybrid
Cannabis” growing in Kullu, Himachal Pradesh, and he implicated “foreign nationals.”

Central and South Asian landraces face extinction through introgressive hybridization.
Wiegand (1935) first described this phenomenon in plants. Introgression refers
to the infiltration of genes between taxa through the bridge of F1 hybrids. Fertile offspring
from these crosses may display hybrid vigor (enhanced fitness), and replace one
or both parental populations (Ellstrand 2003). Recent phylogenetic studies of populations
allegedly representing “Indica” and “Sativa” show little or no genetic differences,
because these studies primarily analyzed hybrid “strains” (Sawler et al. 2015; Dufresnes
et al. 2017; Schwabe and McGlaughlin 2018). These results conflict with studies of
landraces collected in the 1970s–1990s, which showed much clearer genetic differences
(Hillig 2005a; Gilmore et al. 2007).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340422046_A_classification_of_endangered_high-THC_cannabis_Cannabis_sativa_subsp_indica_domesticates_and_their_wild_relatives

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